The anticipation builds

[madstork]

Originally Posted by Mike-49er

You're not being fair. They were 5-11 in '87, 7-9 in '88. And he didn't go 8-8 in '89, he went 7-5 after Shanny went 1-3. Followed by a 590 winning percentage and three trips to the playoffs in the following 5 years when they hadn't been to the playoffs since '85 and you're saying he didn't turn them around? I wonder if you grade the Red and Gold on the same curve you use for the Silver and Black.

A truly ****ty performance for sure. As far as having the horses, does he get any credit for getting that far with Jay Schroeder at the helm? Joe Gibbs gets a lot of credit for getting so much out of Schroeder in '86 and the season ended the same way for him: an embarassing, interception filled Championship game blowout loss at the Giants (I was there, it was ugly!)

Again, see above. 590 winning percentage, three playoff appearances, only one losing season. They certainly DID win with Shell the first time around. They didn't win a Super Bowl. And by the way, the all time record for penalties in a season is held by Shottenheimer's Chiefs, I'm pretty sure it was in '97. Another noted disciplinarian. And the Chiefs were good that year.

Howie Long and Bob Golic, among others, called him the scariest coach they ever played for. Jerry Porter is already bristling at the extra work Shell is putting the team through. The last time Porter had a problem with a Raider head coach, it was Gruden. Coincidence, or is Shell a hard nosed coach? Call Allen's situation what you will but it was between Allen and Davis and Shell did a pretty remarkable job keeping the team together. 7-9 that year, shipped out Allen and brought in Hoss and went 10-6 in '93, with a narrow divisional loss in Buffalo in January keeping them out of the championship game.

Obviously that's why he was fired, although I doubt you thought so highly of their talent at the time. They were weak at RB (Napoleon McCallum and Greg Robinson), tackle (Bruce Wilkerson and Gerald Perry), wideout behind Brown, and LB. And firing Shell is a move Davis almost immediately regretted making. He has said there were others on Shell's staff who were doing harm to him, and he wasn't talking about Walsh, either. Willie Brown said a couple of weeks ago that Shell has a tougher attitude this time around because some of his assistants were disloyal last time. I'd bet against that happening again. Shell and Davis know more than we do on this subject and they both wanted Walsh back. That tells me something.

Experience as an offensive line coach in KC and Atlanta, having success with both of those teams. Seeing how others do it after spending his entire adult life with one organization. Working under a head coach who has owned the Raiders over his career and seeing how he does it. Even working in the league office gave him an opportunity to visit almost every team and training camp in the league and see how things are done, as recently as last summer. And speaking of that noted Raider lover, Marty Schottenheimer, here's what he had to say about how Shell's recent job will serve him as a head coach:

"I think (Shell) will be terrific," Schottenheimer said. "He worked with us in Kansas City for a time. The one thing you know, the past several years that he's been working in the league office will serve him very well.

"Over those years, he recognized the pulse of the game, the transition that it's made."

Why should I? I love how the past is irrelevant when Raider fans are talking about successes, but I'm supposed to dwell on the hiring of Joe Bugel in 1997 as if it has any relevance to what we're talking about now.

It was between Shell and Gruden in '98. Shell's name was mentioned when Turner was hired. Shell interviewed with Miami, New Orleans, and Cleveland in recent years. Does the fact that those teams passed him over immediately count as a strike against him? Like New Orleans and Cleveland have made such sterling decisions in hiring coaches in the past 10 years?

Save the "we didn't make any offers"..of COURSE YOU DIDN'T. How could you? You have asst coach after asst coach sending you memo's stating "DON'T BOTHER, NOT INTERESTED"

So, why is Shell all of a sudden the man "to bring back the Raider edge"? Well, if you want to discuss the two, sure, at this point Nolan is in the same boat, leaky that it may be.

But that's not the point, is it?

Point is Shell is going to be VERY hard pressed to do what so many of you assume he'll do. And yes, the hiring of the waffle cook could just rival the Bugel hiring as one of the most questionable in recent team history.

That alone is amazing. You hire the guy that was partially responsible FOR YOU GETTING FIRED IN THE FIRST PLACE. The guy who's actually BEEN OUT OF THE GAME LONGER THAN SHELL HAS. A guy who has no idea AT ALL on how today's offenses are being run, or how today's defenses are lining up to counter.

You really think someone who's been completely out of the game for OVER a decade can just step in and perform as OC??

Your last point has some validity, if there is a fair question about any of this offseason's moves, it involves Walsh. I will point out that he has been broadcasting college football games as recently as last season, the same thing Vermeil did in his absence. The whole cute press angle of "all he's been doing is making omlettes for 10 years" makes for good copy, but it's not true. And you're claiming that Walsh got Shell fired. Not true. Mike White is the culprit everyone is referring to from '94. Do you really think Shell would have brought Walsh back if that were true? That alone tells me how little credit you want to give the guy.

[SilverHaze81]

I found something quite funny..I mean our Super Bowl chances aren't the best..they gave us 30-1 odds, but to be a niner fan must really suck knowing your odds are 110-1..thats just degrading, and sad...now now..I know exactly where you are going with this, so save it..Alex Smith=Ryan Leaf w/smaller hands..

[Access Denied]

Originally Posted by Snoop750

[OG BAMM BAMM]

Howie retire early, Bo went down, Allen had a major dispute with Davis....and these are the players who you guys bring up during the first go around for Coach Shell...please!!...Shell inherits Moss, Porter, Gabriel, Jordan, Grove and Gallery on offense and on defense his has a young group of players with alot of speed such as Burgess, Nnamdi, Fabain, Stanford, Morrison, Stuart and in his first year he drafted Huff, Howard and Bing to boost up the defense even more

[Mike-49er]

Originally Posted by Mike-49er to MadStork

:
Yeah..and guys like Marcus Allen, Bo Jackson, etc..Shell's team, at that time, was definitely stronger than the one he now inherits. Turn around a team? Hmm..he took over for your guys favorite coach to love, Shanahan (did Al ever send him his 250K? ) after the season started, and while winning a string of games, you still only ended up at 8-8. Not exactly spell binding numbers there.

You're not being fair. They were 5-11 in '87, 7-9 in '88. And he didn't go 8-8 in '89, he went 7-5 after Shanny went 1-3. Followed by a 590 winning percentage and three trips to the playoffs in the following 5 years when they hadn't been to the playoffs since '85 and you're saying he didn't turn them around? I wonder if you grade the Red and Gold on the same curve you use for the Silver and Black.
Sure I do. You think I annoy you guys? I REALLY piss them off on the Niner board
I look at those numbers, and I also look at the players, right?
Do you believe a mediocre coach can win, with a good team?
I'm sure you do. Look at Callahan. He's been to the SB, yet, he's viewed by all as anything but a good coach.
Look at Seifert. When he left the Niners he had the best winning % of any NFL coach, ever. Niners got a LOT of "how can you fire him when he won a SB? When you got in playoffs?? Answer was "we won IN SPITE of Seifert, not because". Same with the Raiders, IMO. You won in spite of Shell, not because.
As it turned out, the Niners were correct in letting Seifert go. When he came back as Carolina's coach, he truly sucked.
So yeah, Shell had some decent numbers...but..again...IMO Al let him go because he, (Like Seirfert) should have done much better with the team that the front office fielded.

:
That was WITH M.Allen and Bo Jackson. Following year you did get in playoffs, but somehow that 51-3 pasting the Bills put on you ended the season. Yes, Shell was the coach. Yes, Shell had the horses.

A truly ****ty performance for sure. As far as having the horses, does he get any credit for getting that far with Jay Schroeder at the helm? Joe Gibbs gets a lot of credit for getting so much out of Schroeder in '86 and the season ended the same way for him: an embarassing, interception filled Championship game blowout loss at the Giants (I was there, it was ugly!) He was let go for his coaching decisions, and that of his assts, which obviously, Walsh was one of them. Yeah, he had Schroeder..but hey..now that you bring it up..which would you rather have, Schroeder or Brooks?

:
As far as penalties? Not sure what your point is. If it's "you can lead the league in penalties, and still win"..SURE. EXCEPT with Shell first time around, you led the league in penalties and DIDN'T win. Big difference.

Again, see above. 590 winning percentage, three playoff appearances, only one losing season. They certainly DID win with Shell the first time around. They didn't win a Super Bowl. And by the way, the all time record for penalties in a season is held by Shottenheimer's Chiefs, I'm pretty sure it was in '97. Another noted disciplinarian. And the Chiefs were good that year.
590?? You're HAPPY with that?? 590? Means you avg. 9-7. That's probably WHY he got fired. 3 playoff appearances?? That's NOT good enough to keep your job in the NFL. See above about Seifert. At that time the Raiders were still in the mode of how the Niners became for that 15 yr. span. Getting to the playoffs is not the goal, mininum was getting to the SB. Losing as a wild card? Not enough in the NFL to state "job is secure". Far from it.
Shell, with the exception of your one year, limped into the playoffs, limped out.
RE: Penalties? There's always an analogy that says 'well, SOMETIMES it doesn't ruin your season. As far as Schott's team "being good that year'..lol..I notice you didn't say "WON that year". My money says the following year the penalties dropped dramatically as Schott benched those that couldn't resist making stupid mistakes.
See..SCHOTT benched them.
Shell??
Has he EVER disciplined a player, on his own, with the Raiders? Doubt it.

:
MY point is Shell is NOT a disciplinearian. He doesn't run a tight ship. Now, here's a reality check for ya, that I've stated many times..the reason his words fall on deft ears is because he's not the guy the players fear, at least his first trip around. Players know the coach does NOT control who plays or sits..and that is just plain wrong. Marcus Allen implosion? lmao...uh...me thinks thou has viewed history incorrectly. That was more the "AL'S PISSED...SIT ALLEN...THAT WILL TEACH HIM' chapter. Wasn't that about the time Al decided to really piss off Allen, and hired yet another Niner castoff in Roger Craig? lol..I think so.

Howie Long and Bob Golic, among others, called him the scariest coach they ever played for. Scary?? What?? Where did you hear that? Would love to see a link where ANY player on that team stated the big teddy bear was SCARY. I've heard quite the opposite. No, not talking about Long "propping" the Raiders, or Al's decision in a passing comment. Jerry Porter is already bristling at the extra work Shell is putting the team through. The last time Porter had a problem with a Raider head coach, it was Gruden. Coincidence, or is Shell a hard nosed coach?
Well, considering that there are numerous reports out, now, that state during the mini camps you can BARELY hear Shell speak, I don't know, lol..what do you think? The comments are "If you show up, looking for the one in charge, taking over, barking out commands, showing all who's boss, you won't be able to tell. For that matter, one of the quietest coaches on the field is Shell". Now, that's from more than one source. Sure, some speak softly, carry big stick, but point is, Shell isn't exactly coming on like blockbusters. Are you surprised at that? I am. Now, some like the quiet mode of coaching, but that's very rare. Not too many like Gibbs..more are like Parcells, Schott, etc..loud and in charge.
Call Allen's situation what you will but it was between Allen and Davis and Shell did a pretty remarkable job keeping the team together. 7-9 that year, shipped out Allen and brought in Hoss and went 10-6 in '93, with a narrow divisional loss in Buffalo in January keeping them out of the championship game.
Actually, many believe the Allen rift was the beginning of the end for Shell. It's been commented on many times that Shell lost the respect of the team over that. Yes, it was between Allen and Al (I'm sure no one wants to discuss the situation where your owner decides to put his personal vendetta before the teams success) and Al told SHELL to sit Allen.
Allen called out Shell for it, finally..and in front of the team Shell denied benching Allen because of being Al's puppet. The whole team knew what was going on, yet Shell stayed with the 'Wasn't Al, was my choice".

:
With the defense the Raiders had, and the talent on both sides of the ball, fans, reporters, and Al all agreed that Shell just wasn't getting the team to the next level.

Obviously that's why he was fired, although I doubt you thought so highly of their talent at the time. They were weak at RB (Napoleon McCallum and Greg Robinson), tackle (Bruce Wilkerson and Gerald Perry), wideout behind Brown, and LB. And firing Shell is a move Davis almost immediately regretted making. He has said there were others on Shell's staff who were doing harm to him, and he wasn't talking about Walsh, either. Willie Brown said a couple of weeks ago that Shell has a tougher attitude this time around because some of his assistants were disloyal last time. I'd bet against that happening again. Shell and Davis know more than we do on this subject and they both wanted Walsh back. That tells me something.
What does that tell you??
Seriously.
My understanding is Shell wanted Walsh, that he was 'comfortable" around him. that Walsh "knew what I want to get done"..and that Al let him. Now, let's keep in mind..WHAT WERE YOUR CHOICES? It's not like every other coach in the NFL hadn't ALREADY been signed to a contract, and that you had your choice. You didn't.
IMO You ended up with Walsh the same way you ended up with Shell. No one wanted the head coaching job, and I seriously doubt that anyone of substance would have left wherever they were to go and coach for Al. (no, not Shell, AL)
Yeah, I've read that, after getting a ton of flack from reporters and fans that Al has stated "I regret firing Art at that time". Now, notice he had 15 years to RECTIFY the error, and just kept picking everyone and their uncle besides Art. That fact alone leads me to believe his comments are all fluff, nothing more.

:
As far as "a lot more experience to draw from this time'??? I'm assuming you mean his own personal experiance, because you sure as hell aren't talking about the coaching staff. Uh..Shell had two brief stints after Al fired him..AND THAT'S IT. With KC, and I think Atlanta. After being fired from those, NO ONE gave him a sniff..as in no one.

Experience as an offensive line coach in KC and Atlanta, having success with both of those teams. Seeing how others do it after spending his entire adult life with one organization. Working under a head coach who has owned the Raiders over his career and seeing how he does it. Even working in the league office gave him an opportunity to visit almost every team and training camp in the league and see how things are done, as recently as last summer. And speaking of that noted Raider lover, Marty Schottenheimer, here's what he had to say about how Shell's recent job will serve him as a head coach:

"I think (Shell) will be terrific," Schottenheimer said. "He worked with us in Kansas City for a time. The one thing you know, the past several years that he's been working in the league office will serve him very well.
lol..well..uh..he gets to play against him twice a year. Of course he's going to say nice things. Do you EVER hear head coaches EVER insult opponents? Even when they're playing a decimated last place team it's always "We know we'll have to play our best this week"..it's all a recording. Now, did you ever wonder why, IF Shell did "good", that Marty, nor ANY OTHER COACH, even gave Shell a job as an asst??
No one did. For a reason. He was mediocre, AT BEST, at both positions. Hell, the rumor is he was hired with KC just to pick his brains on how the Raiders do things..and then he was gone. Appears those rumors are likely true.
Working in the league office..helps you be a HEAD COACH???
lol..uh..ok.
BTW..going out for a cursory visit, to various teams, is not exactly going to give you insights on much, especially how to be a head coach. A visit is just that, a visit. Not a week of observation, but a visit from the league office.

"Over those years, he recognized the pulse of the game, the transition that it's made."
And how, EXACTLY could anyone know what anyone observed, or recognized?? See above about 'this is a recording". Also see above about "got zero interviews during that time"

:
Since then, look at the debacle you guys have had.

Why should I? I love how the past is irrelevant when Raider fans are talking about successes, but I'm supposed to dwell on the hiring of Joe Bugel in 1997 as if it has any relevance to what we're talking about now.

:
Riddle me this, Raider fans.

You hired among others, Joe Bugel..arguably the sorriest coaching hire of all time (T. Brown to media: Game plans SUCK. Bugel to team: No airing our dirty laundry to media, do it HERE. T. Brown: GAME PLAN SUCKS. Bugel: Meeting OVER. T. Brown: We'll just call our own plays.) Why did Al NOT go back and hire Shell, instead of Bugel?

You hire Callahan? Why not Shell??

You hire Turner? Why not Shell??

You so desperately wanted to hire anyone but Shell this last year..and you ended up with basically the only guy who would take the job..Shell. AM I WRONG?? Did you even have an option B??? Was it ever "Between Shell and ____??"

It was between Shell and Gruden in '98. Shell's name was mentioned when Turner was hired. Shell interviewed with Miami, New Orleans, and Cleveland in recent years. Does the fact that those teams passed him over immediately count as a strike against him? Like New Orleans and Cleveland have made such sterling decisions in hiring coaches in the past 10 years?
So, you're agreeing? My point is, and STILL is "If Art regretted anything, why not give Shell a chance before any of those hacks, above?" Al didn't. And I believe, had any other coach showed an interest in your head coaching position, that Shell would still be in limbo. Al didn't want him, PERIOD, since he fired him.
As you stated, Al passed on him for Bugel..passed on him for Gruden..passed on him for Turner..and now, after you wait until the SB is over, to hire their OC, and he states not interested? Now? NOW he's hired? And you really honestly believe he was Al's choice, or his last resort?

Save the "we didn't make any offers"..of COURSE YOU DIDN'T. How could you? You have asst coach after asst coach sending you memo's stating "DON'T BOTHER, NOT INTERESTED"

So, why is Shell all of a sudden the man "to bring back the Raider edge"? Well, if you want to discuss the two, sure, at this point Nolan is in the same boat, leaky that it may be.

But that's not the point, is it?

Point is Shell is going to be VERY hard pressed to do what so many of you assume he'll do. And yes, the hiring of the waffle cook could just rival the Bugel hiring as one of the most questionable in recent team history.

That alone is amazing. You hire the guy that was partially responsible FOR YOU GETTING FIRED IN THE FIRST PLACE. The guy who's actually BEEN OUT OF THE GAME LONGER THAN SHELL HAS. A guy who has no idea AT ALL on how today's offenses are being run, or how today's defenses are lining up to counter.

You really think someone who's been completely out of the game for OVER a decade can just step in and perform as OC??

Your last point has some validity, if there is a fair question about any of this offseason's moves, it involves Walsh. I will point out that he has been broadcasting college football games as recently as last season, the same thing Vermeil did in his absence. The whole cute press angle of "all he's been doing is making omlettes for 10 years" makes for good copy, but it's not true. And you're claiming that Walsh got Shell fired. Not true. Mike White is the culprit everyone is referring to from '94. Do you really think Shell would have brought Walsh back if that were true? That alone tells me how little credit you want to give the guy.

Wasn't Walsh fired for doing a bad job??

Wasn't the fact he did a bad job one of the reasons Art didn't look as good as he should have/wanted to?? (this, of course, applies to all head coaches looking good when the assts do well, and conversely, looking the opposite when the opposite occurs)

Yes, Walsh wasn't making beds and stirring up Bisquick mix the whole 10 years. He took 2 years to have a horrible record coaching in college...THEN he started with the "Would you like two twin beds, or one queen size?"


Now..again...are YOU OK WITH WALSH?? You don't see how this could just backfire on Art?
Hell..I like Art..always have. (not that it matters, but became a bigger NON AL fan after what he did to Shell first time around..him and Allen)..so do you really think Art did good hiring Walsh?

You look at today's schemes. Seems you need a college degree just to follow. Players are routinely blown away at just understanding the play book. The coaches have to be the EXPERTS at not just designing plays but at when to call them, to keep the defense guessing.
If the defense gets anything routine, or predictable, your qb's ass is grass, right?
The NFL is now lightyears ahead of where it was a decade ago. Problem is both of your coaches now have to try and 'catch up" to today's NFL.

I say Art should have hired a solid established OC. Hell, you SHOULD have hired Mike Martz to be your OC. Instead you got Cheese Omelette

[Mike-49er]

Originally Posted by OG BAMM BAMM

Howie retire early, Bo went down, Allen had a major dispute with Davis....and these are the players who you guys bring up during the first go around for Coach Shell...please!!...Shell inherits Moss, Porter, Gabriel, Jordan, Grove and Gallery on offense and on defense his has a young group of players with alot of speed such as Burgess, Nnamdi, Fabain, Stanford, Morrison, Stuart and in his first year he drafted Huff, Howard and Bing to boost up the defense even more

Bad news for ya.

Those players you mentioned, above, that Shell inherited, got you that awesome 4-12 record last year.

And it will change this year...because??

Did I mention you still don't have a qb?

Next time

[cad]

i still dont see how we "don't have a qb?" saying that is just stubborn and childish

1) its funny how Niner fans can make fun of any ones qb positions and still think their's is okay

2) Walter shows alot of promise so far in mini camps with killa zip and accuarcy, thats why we didnt draft leinart, doesnt fit in our offence and walter shows great potential

3) i still dont see how u can be so stubborn and still think your qb situation is fine( just had to bring that up again)

4) Brook's in a new environment may exicte him again into playing aother 60%,24 TD, 8ints and 88 rating season
with the weapons he has he which by the way are better then N.O whats stopping him? u saying we have no qb is plan stupid, look at Brook's stats they seem pretty solid to me, and dont bring up the benching by the saints u have already put many to sleep with that dont say it again

[madstork]

Mike, I'm not going to take apart your last post piece by piece because I don't have time to write it and nobody here has time to read it. but a few key points:

1) I think you're being tough on Seifert and you're being tough on Shell. Tom Flores didn't do so hot in Seattle but he won two Super Bowls with the Raiders. Should the Raiders have fired him? And you keep talking about the team the front office gave Art as if he had the early '90's Cowboys. In '94 he had an injury prone Hoss, third and fourth string running backs because McCallum and Robinson (who were not exactly Rockne and the Galloping Ghost) were injured, and an offensive line consisting of Wiz, Mosebar, and garbage. Howie was no longer around on D. He did a damn good job to go 9-7 that year.

2)You asked which I'd rather have, Schroeder or Brooks, I already stated I'd take Brooks. Why? Try a 120 to 84 TD to INT ratio for Brooks that Schroeder couldn't touch. How about the fact that Shroeder rarely threw more TDs than INTs in a season and Brooks has done it every season of his career except one? How about mobility? Can you seriously make a case for Shroeder over Brooks?

3) You're saying 590 isn't good enough, but it's better than Gruden and it's better than a lot of coaches who are considered good coaches. More to the point, it's better than anyone has done for the Raiders since, well...Art Shell! Sometimes you don't know what you've got till it's gone, and the years after Art show that the Raiders had something pretty good.

4) Yes, Art is a scary presence for his players. Do you think yelling and being loud makes a coach scary? Was Gruden scary? I can't find the Howie Long quote on short notice but he did tell a story about Art Shell lining up across from a loafing Chester McGlockton in shorts and a t shirt and pancaking him! You think that might have sent a message? And here is what Bob Golic said, word for word from the Raiders' website:

"Plus he was just scary, because even though I’m a big guy, he was.. He had this deep voice and he didn’t even have to say anything. I remember if we were in a team meeting and a player walked in late, oh my God. A lot of times he wouldn’t even say anything. He would stop whatever he was saying and it would just go dead silent, I mean you couldn’t even hear a pin drop. He would just stare at whoever the player it was walking in. And the thing is we’re all sitting there, we’re already in the meeting so we’re not in trouble, but he had a way of making everybody feel like they were in trouble."

He's a gentleman off the field and he's soft spoken. Don't mistake that for weakness.

5) Al was quoted years ago as saying he regretted firing Shell, that didn't just pop out in the last three months. Once you fire someone, right or wrong, you usually don't rehire them unless you're George Steinbrenner. It's only natural that Davis looked in other directions. But then again he's the only owner to abandon a city then return to it, so it's still in character!

6) Schottenheimer isn't obliged to say anything nice about anyone affiliated with the Raiders. Turner coached under Shottenheimer for a year with the Chargers and Marty had no compliments for Norv when the Raiders hired him.

7) Yes, football progresses, but don't make these guys out to be Mensa members. Big Ben is one of the dumbest quarterbacks in football, and a young one at that. Do you really think the Steelers have done anything all that complicated with him? And they won the Super Bowl! Norv has laughed when people called his 90's Cowboy offenses "complex". Norv says they only ran a dozen plays. I'm sure he's exaggerating for effect, but you can understand his point.

8) Please give me a break with the red font. It's late on the east coast and my eyes hurt.

Clearly you want the Raiders to fail, you want Shell to fail, and you want Raider fans to be miserable. By the way, since you called me on the "scary" comment and I backed it up with documentation, can you provide me for your source on the "KC only hired Art to pick his brain and fire him" rumor that you referenced? And the Chiefs were 13-3 in '97, 7-9 in '98. Care to provide any backup on all the penalty prone players Marty benched after a 13-3 campaign?

By the way, please notice all this writing and not one cheap shot at the state of the Niners. I'm staying on topic!

[OG BAMM BAMM]

^^^great post Madstork...rep on the way

[Mike-49er]

Originally Posted by cad

i still dont see how we "don't have a qb?" saying that is just stubborn and childish

Awww...someone need a blanky? lol. I say it because you DON't, wandering babbling boob. "It's Brooks, It's Walter. Brooks sucked, but will be great. Walter never played..HE'LL be great"...again...WHO'S YOUR QB?

1) its funny how Niner fans can make fun of any ones qb positions and still think their's is okay [/quote] No, what's funny is you sit in front of your keyboard, push down keys, read that stupid crap above, and then decide "yeah, that works"..and you hit submit. That is DAMN funny...even for you, Marsupial lover.

2) Walter shows alot of promise so far in mini camps with killa zip and accuarcy, thats why we didnt draft leinart, doesnt fit in our offence and walter shows great potential

See above about don't post stupid **** just to see your name. Gee..that's funny..the reports stated Walter looked LOST in minicamps, and that they were sure it was "just jittlers..he'll be fine".

3) i still dont see how u can be so stubborn and still think your qb situation is fine( just had to bring that up again)

See above about you feeling the need to post, regardless of the outcome. Now, training camp is coming up. It's helpful in all kinds of ways, including posters. Now is the time to get that silly "duh, had to say it again" stuff out of the way, so it doesn't clutter things up in 3 weeks.

4) Brook's in a new environment may exicte him again into playing aother 60%,24 TD, 8ints and 88 rating season
with the weapons he has he which by the way are better then N.O whats stopping him? u saying we have no qb is plan stupid, look at Brook's stats they seem pretty solid to me, and dont bring up the benching by the saints u have already put many to sleep with that dont say it again

Saints benched his sorry ass. The SAINTS. Yep..those same lowly bottom of the barrel, oh damn we suck, Saints...benched Brooks worthless pathetic ass because he SUCKED.
Oh..that's right..you just pleaded like a child "don't say it again...I CAN'T TAKE IT'. Well, ok..just for you, I won't say it again.

Now, Blubbering Roo, don't go pull a worthless stat from YEARS AGO..last two years the guy literally fell apart out on the field. Would make a great play, then throw it right into arms of defender. Would elude the rush, then fumble the ball away.

Now Roo, my advice to you is just accept the fact the Saints benched his sorryass, and move on.

Oh snap..I did it again..didn't I?

Darn. I was so sure I wasn't.

I hate it when I do that.