My challenge to PRA

[L.A. Raiderfan]

You talk stupid BS real good best I have seen, but I doubt you talk football well at all. So I challenge you to a "football knowledge battle". You make your argument as to why the Patriots will beat the Raiders in week 1 and I will respond to you & we will keep going back and forth. Just me & you. Since your in my house you can go first, start the argument and please make it good.

[Pats_Rule_all]

I accept your challenge...are you sure you can stop making dumb comments about my sexual proclivities long enough to hold a debate?

OK here goes.

1. The Patriots have the best QB in the league - even if you dont agree with him being the best he is at worst top 3 material.

Tom Brady has improved his game each and every year, getting better at checking down his recievers (if you read anything on ESPN or NFL.com you will see that many 'experts' regard him to be the best in the NFL at this)

Tom Brady's passer rating for last year (not counting post-season) was 92.6 with 28TD's and 14 INTS a ratio of 2:1

Kerry Collins passer rating for last year was 74.8 with 21TD's and 20 INT's - barely above 1TD for every pick.
This rating put Collins behind such outstanding talents such as Drew Bledsoe, Tim Rattay and even Titans back-up Billy Volek.

2. The Patriots are returning the VAST MAJORITY of their starters from the last two seasons which have resulted in a 34-4 record and two SB wins.

3. The Patriots have one of the leading Running Backs in the league in Corey Dillon who rushed for a 3rd ranked 1635 yards in only 15 regular season games giving him an avg of 105 yards per game.

4. A New England D is returning ALL of its key starters from last seasons succesful post-season, which ranked No.2 in total points allowed - contrast this to an Oakland D, that despite what the dreamers on this forum think, has made NO SIGNIFICANT UPGRADES.

Oakland finished 2nd from LAST in points allowed - a whopping 27.6 ppg.

Oakland finished DEAD LAST in TD's conceded - 56.

Oakland finished 3rd from LAST in passing yards allowed a whopping 245.2 ypg

Oakland finished joint 3rd from LAST with a measly NINE (9) interceptions.

Oakland finished 2nd from LAST in sacks gained - an embarassing 25...

Oakland finished 3rd from LAST in net turnovers a futile minus 19 - compared to the Patriots +9

Can you convince me that you have done anything in the off-season to upgrade the personnel of this awful D?

Why shouldn't I believe that Tom Brady & Co, who run up 40+ points on last seasons NUMBER ONE ranked scoring defence (Pittsburgh), wont put another 40 on this unit?

I look forward to your response - I would appreciate if you could address each point seperately, so we can have a rational argument.

Logic and facts are on my side LA, but I appreciate you asking me for a head-2-head debate.

Regards

PRA

[L.A. Raiderfan]

Originally Posted by Pats_Rule_all

I accept your challenge...are you sure you can stop making dumb comments about my sexual proclivities long enough to hold a debate?

OK here goes.

1. The Patriots have the best QB in the league - even if you dont agree with him being the best he is at worst top 3 material.

Tom Brady has improved his game each and every year, getting better at checking down his recievers (if you read anything on ESPN or NFL.com you will see that many 'experts' regard him to be the best in the NFL at this)

Tom Brady's passer rating for last year (not counting post-season) was 92.6 with 28TD's and 14 INTS a ratio of 2:1

Kerry Collins passer rating for last year was 74.8 with 21TD's and 20 INT's - barely above 1TD for every pick.
This rating put Collins behind such outstanding talents such as Drew Bledsoe, Tim Rattay and even Titans back-up Billy Volek.

2. The Patriots are returning the VAST MAJORITY of their starters from the last two seasons which have resulted in a 34-4 record and two SB wins.

3. The Patriots have one of the leading Running Backs in the league in Corey Dillon who rushed for a 3rd ranked 1635 yards in only 15 regular season games giving him an avg of 105 yards per game.

4. A New England D is returning ALL of its key starters from last seasons succesful post-season, which ranked No.2 in total points allowed - contrast this to an Oakland D, that despite what the dreamers on this forum think, has made NO SIGNIFICANT UPGRADES.

Oakland finished 2nd from LAST in points allowed - a whopping 27.6 ppg.

Oakland finished DEAD LAST in TD's conceded - 56.

Oakland finished 3rd from LAST in passing yards allowed a whopping 245.2 ypg

Oakland finished joint 3rd from LAST with a measly NINE (9) interceptions.

Oakland finished 2nd from LAST in sacks gained - an embarassing 25...

Oakland finished 3rd from LAST in net turnovers a futile minus 19 - compared to the Patriots +9

Can you convince me that you have done anything in the off-season to upgrade the personnel of this awful D?

Why shouldn't I believe that Tom Brady & Co, who run up 40+ points on last seasons NUMBER ONE ranked scoring defence (Pittsburgh), wont put another 40 on this unit?

I look forward to your response - I would appreciate if you could address each point seperately, so we can have a rational argument.

Logic and facts are on my side LA, but I appreciate you asking me for a head-2-head debate.

Regards

PRA

1. Tom Brady is good clutch QB and a good player, although he will miss Charlie Weis and the luxury of having a top 5 defense this year.

Kerry Collins threw 16 of his 21 TD's in the last 8 games of the season. He played outstanding considering we had no running game and we couldn't run any PA passes. This season Collins will have a stable run game that will create more miss matches in the passing game, and we will be able to run PA 75% of the time. Not to mention Collins is one of the best deep passers in the NFL and this offense is suited for the long ball.

2. The Patriots lost Tedy Bruschi, Ted Johnson, and Ty Law. These three players accounted for 227 tackles, 4.5 sacks, and 4 INT's. Not to mention Bruschi was the undisputed leader of the Patriot defense, he was considered a coach on the field. Now your replacing Tedy Bruschi and his 122 tackles and great leadership with Monty Beisel who hasn't done anything in this league. At the other ILB you have injury prone Chad Brown, although I heard he might play OLB but really doesn't matter b/c hes only good for 1/2 the season at the most. Then we have your CB's Chad Scott, Duane Starks, Randall Gay, and Tyrone Poole are all up in age(except Gay) and just average. Asante Samuel is a good CB but one good CB isn't enough to stop Moss,Porter,Curry, and Gabriel. And to top it off you lost your DC, your defense will be lucky to be in the top 15 this season. The talent at ILB and CB are weak, and to run an effective 3-4 you need two good ILB's and two good CB's which your team doesn't have right now.

3. Corey Dillon is a good back but he doesn't have fresh legs, a RB's career in the NFL isn't to long. One can only wonder how many 1600 yard seasons Dillon has left in the tank.

4. I already addressed your defense I also find it amusing you don't consider Tedy Bruschi(your best defensive player from last year) or Ted Johnson a key part of your defense. Your defense is also old and has only gotten worse this off-season.

Our defense has made many changes the biggest is moving to 4-3 which is what most of our players are accustomed to. We signed Jay Foreman who is averaging 100+ tackles a season, Ed Jasper who is a solid DT against the run, Derrick Burgess who has the ability to be a very good pass rusher. Our DB's are a lot better this season with R-Burnt and P-Burnt gone, and Derrick Gibson coming back along with veteran Renaldo Hill. We also have two rookie CB's who are impressing in camp and could contribute right away.

All of those numbers you mentioned were from two completely different teams. We added Randy Moss, LaMont Jordan, Jay Foreman, Ed Jasper, Renaldo Hill, and Derrick Burgess. The Raider defense will be seeing at least 5-7 new starters this season and be playing in the 4-3. The Raider offense was already good but now we have added the best WR in the game and solid RB with a lot of gas in his tank.

The Patriots lost two of the best coordinators in the game in Charlie Weis & Romeo Crennel and didn't find any solid replacements for Tedy Bruschi, Ted Johnson, or Ty Law.

So as you can see during this offseason the Raiders have improved their team dramitcally while the Pats have gotten a lot worse.

[d-mac37]

Round one winner:

L.A. Raiderfan

Carry on......

[RandytheRaider]

i vote l.araider fan winning the 1st round

[The Shocker]

La one that pa is still a bicth!!

[R8rNation]

WoW, not much of a contest here.

[Pats_Rule_all]

Thanks for the reply LA.

My response-

I am going to try and deal in facts here not guesswork - this will be the main theme of my reply.

1. Tom Brady is THE MOST clutch QB in the league - this is not up for dispute.
He has never played without Charlie Weis so there is NO WAY you can say that he will be worse off without him.

I happen to like Charlie Weis but alot of people are of the opinion that his play calling can be gimmicky and overly complicated.

It does not matter to me when Collins threw them TD's and in what order, if he had an improved end of season or not - all that means was that he threw better when there was no pressure on him because the raiders were out of the playoff hunt!

LaMont Jordan is NOT A PROVEN STARTER - I agree he was an impressive back-up - but you are basing Collins having a better season on guesswork.
You do not KNOW that Jordan will be able to run the ball at all behind your O-line so your point holds no water.

2. I will take your point regarding Tedy Bruschi - I have mentioned in other posts that he is a big loss to us, both as a player and a leader.
We do have concerns at ILB....but ILB ONLY - our OLB is looking very solid - we have Rosevelt Colvin who has steadily improved last year and will be 100% fit for the first time in two years - this is a guy who got 10 sacks in a season with the CHICAGO BEARS!

Our CB's are a very strong area - how can you justify saying that they are only average - even depsite a massive injury list not one team was able to run up big points against us last year.

Starks is a shutdown corner when healthy, and he has no current injury concerns.
Samuel would probably have won the starters job last even without the injury crisis.
Gay played outstanding last year and can only improve in his first full season.

You say that we need to have 2 good CB's to run a successful 3-4 - would you say that winning the SUPERBOWL is successful or not?

How about a 21 game winning streak....is that successful enough for you?

WE ARE RETURNING ALL OUR CB's that won us the SB - PLUS Starks, and Poole - how can you say that we are weaker in this department??

3. Your point about Dillon is ridiculous - it doesn't matter how fresh you think his legs are...he is coming off a CAREER YEAR...that is the only proof you need of his effectiveness....again you are using guesswork, NOT FACTS to suggest he will not be as good.

BTW - it does not matter how many 1600 yard seasons Dillon has left - WE ARE ONLY TALKING ABOUT WEEK ONE....REMEMBER?

Lets have a look at the new faces that are going to make your D rank better than 3rd from last in ANY CATEGORY shall we?

4. Jay Foreman had so many tackles because he played for the TEXANS - a losing team that spends way too much time with its D on the field.

Ed Jasper - is this the Ed jasper who has started less and less games for the Falcons over the last 3 years?

Derrick Burgess - where is the proof that he can give you ANY SORT of pass-rush?
He has 8.5 sacks in 4 seasons......and only 2.5 LAST YEAR...playing for the BEST TEAM in the NFC....sounds like you are grasping at straws here!

Derrick Gibson - I laugh in the face of your presumption that this guy will improve your DB division - what is so good about him?....not exactly a BALL HAWK is he?
A GRAND TOTAL of 3 INT's in 47 games......that is ONE PICK PER SEASON....nothing to scare Tom Brady im sure you will agree.

Renaldo Hill - you are kidding me right? You are telling me that an Arizona Cardinal is an UPGRADE? Well maybe so - your D could hardly have got worse could it?
A grand total of 8 INTS in 4 years for Mr Hill give him 2 INTs per year....even if you add his total to Derrick Gibsons amazing stats - then you have...3 INTs PER SEASON....these guys are going to make you better you say?

BTW - I wouldn't count on Rookies to help you out this year at CB - you sound even more desperate relying on first year players to make you better.

You say that the Raiders will have 5-7 NEW STARTERS.....as a way of saying they are going to improve?

Hold on - you just got done telling me that our D was going to struggle to be top 15 because of all the new guys...you need to make your mind up.

Losing co-ordinators is just a natural fall-out from being successful -something you wont have noticed in Oakland in a few years right?

Our D - coach Mangini is the guy responsible for making our injury ridden DB corps competitive last year - he also the guy that you tried to sign in the off season....guess he cant be too bad then right?

Our O- Coach will be one Mr Belichick - the finest defensive mind in the league.
Do you know why a good detective is a good detective?

Because he is able to get into the heads of criminals and understand how they think.

Do you know why BB is the best Defensive coach in the game?

Because he is able to get into the heads of Offense coaches and understand how they think.

So lets sum up shall we?

Our CB's are IMPROVED from last year...in case you didn't notice Ty Law didnt play for us after WEEK 8 - we won IT ALL without him...how will he be missed?

Your additions to a D that ranked near BOTTOM in every category last year are mostly journeymen pro's - maybe the Pats could make them good players but I dont see them making you any better.

Show me even one new IMPACT D player??!!

The Raiders HAVE NOT improved dramatically at all - and the Patriots have question marks at ONE position - ILB - I know which team I would back.

BTW - the bookies have us at -7.5 which makes the Oakland Raiders the BIGGEST LONG SHOTS of week one.

Looks like they dont think you are massively improved eh? LOL

We can talk D-Lines next if you want.

PRA

[Pats_Rule_all]

Originally Posted by Tha Rizzock

La one that pa is still a bicth!!

Hey Wazzock,

Why dont you try talking football sometime instead of standing on the sidelines waving pom-poms for your boyfriend?

My abbreviated name is only 3 letters long...how could you manage to get this wrong - want someone to come round and show you how a keyboard works?

PRA....(not pa)

[The Shocker]

Pa AKA pussie ass LOL I talk football in football forums not smack forums genius!!

[elraider24]

I vote L.A. Raider is kicking the Bruschi less PRA's ass.

[L.A. Raiderfan]

Originally Posted by Pats_Rule_all

Thanks for the reply LA.

My response-

I am going to try and deal in facts here not guesswork - this will be the main theme of my reply.

1. Tom Brady is THE MOST clutch QB in the league - this is not up for dispute.
He has never played without Charlie Weis so there is NO WAY you can say that he will be worse off without him.

I happen to like Charlie Weis but alot of people are of the opinion that his play calling can be gimmicky and overly complicated.

It does not matter to me when Collins threw them TD's and in what order, if he had an improved end of season or not - all that means was that he threw better when there was no pressure on him because the raiders were out of the playoff hunt!

LaMont Jordan is NOT A PROVEN STARTER - I agree he was an impressive back-up - but you are basing Collins having a better season on guesswork.
You do not KNOW that Jordan will be able to run the ball at all behind your O-line so your point holds no water.

2. I will take your point regarding Tedy Bruschi - I have mentioned in other posts that he is a big loss to us, both as a player and a leader.
We do have concerns at ILB....but ILB ONLY - our OLB is looking very solid - we have Rosevelt Colvin who has steadily improved last year and will be 100% fit for the first time in two years - this is a guy who got 10 sacks in a season with the CHICAGO BEARS!

Our CB's are a very strong area - how can you justify saying that they are only average - even depsite a massive injury list not one team was able to run up big points against us last year.

Starks is a shutdown corner when healthy, and he has no current injury concerns.
Samuel would probably have won the starters job last even without the injury crisis.
Gay played outstanding last year and can only improve in his first full season.

You say that we need to have 2 good CB's to run a successful 3-4 - would you say that winning the SUPERBOWL is successful or not?

How about a 21 game winning streak....is that successful enough for you?

WE ARE RETURNING ALL OUR CB's that won us the SB - PLUS Starks, and Poole - how can you say that we are weaker in this department??

3. Your point about Dillon is ridiculous - it doesn't matter how fresh you think his legs are...he is coming off a CAREER YEAR...that is the only proof you need of his effectiveness....again you are using guesswork, NOT FACTS to suggest he will not be as good.

BTW - it does not matter how many 1600 yard seasons Dillon has left - WE ARE ONLY TALKING ABOUT WEEK ONE....REMEMBER?

Lets have a look at the new faces that are going to make your D rank better than 3rd from last in ANY CATEGORY shall we?

4. Jay Foreman had so many tackles because he played for the TEXANS - a losing team that spends way too much time with its D on the field.

Ed Jasper - is this the Ed jasper who has started less and less games for the Falcons over the last 3 years?

Derrick Burgess - where is the proof that he can give you ANY SORT of pass-rush?
He has 8.5 sacks in 4 seasons......and only 2.5 LAST YEAR...playing for the BEST TEAM in the NFC....sounds like you are grasping at straws here!

Derrick Gibson - I laugh in the face of your presumption that this guy will improve your DB division - what is so good about him?....not exactly a BALL HAWK is he?
A GRAND TOTAL of 3 INT's in 47 games......that is ONE PICK PER SEASON....nothing to scare Tom Brady im sure you will agree.

Renaldo Hill - you are kidding me right? You are telling me that an Arizona Cardinal is an UPGRADE? Well maybe so - your D could hardly have got worse could it?
A grand total of 8 INTS in 4 years for Mr Hill give him 2 INTs per year....even if you add his total to Derrick Gibsons amazing stats - then you have...3 INTs PER SEASON....these guys are going to make you better you say?

BTW - I wouldn't count on Rookies to help you out this year at CB - you sound even more desperate relying on first year players to make you better.

You say that the Raiders will have 5-7 NEW STARTERS.....as a way of saying they are going to improve?

Hold on - you just got done telling me that our D was going to struggle to be top 15 because of all the new guys...you need to make your mind up.

Losing co-ordinators is just a natural fall-out from being successful -something you wont have noticed in Oakland in a few years right?

Our D - coach Mangini is the guy responsible for making our injury ridden DB corps competitive last year - he also the guy that you tried to sign in the off season....guess he cant be too bad then right?

Our O- Coach will be one Mr Belichick - the finest defensive mind in the league.
Do you know why a good detective is a good detective?

Because he is able to get into the heads of criminals and understand how they think.

Do you know why BB is the best Defensive coach in the game?

Because he is able to get into the heads of Offense coaches and understand how they think.

So lets sum up shall we?

Our CB's are IMPROVED from last year...in case you didn't notice Ty Law didnt play for us after WEEK 8 - we won IT ALL without him...how will he be missed?

Your additions to a D that ranked near BOTTOM in every category last year are mostly journeymen pro's - maybe the Pats could make them good players but I dont see them making you any better.

Show me even one new IMPACT D player??!!

The Raiders HAVE NOT improved dramatically at all - and the Patriots have question marks at ONE position - ILB - I know which team I would back.

BTW - the bookies have us at -7.5 which makes the Okaland Raiders the BIGGEST LONG SHOTS of week one.

Looks like they dont think you are massively improved eh? LOL

We can talk D-Lines next if you want.

PRA

1. It takes any QB 4 or 5 games to get comfortable with a new offense and new team especially when your not the starter in camp or for the 1st 3 games of the regular season, once Collins got accustomed to the offense he tore it up. So your argument that it doesn't matter what order it came in shows you don't know much about QB's and the NFL. Also if you watch one game Kerry Collins has played in you can tell he is one of the best deep passers in todays game which is what this offense needs.

LaMont Jordan is not a proven starter either was Priest Holmes when he signed with KC and how did he turn out? How about Eddie George he was a proven starter but he didn't do to well in Dallas did he? The fact is LaMont Jordan has the size speed and ability to a be a starter and a very good one, Curtis Martin said LaMont was a better back then he was. So I will take his word. Also LaMont has fresh legs and many years left in his tank.

2. Rosevelt Colvin ah the guy who had 32 tackles last season, ok!

Starks is a shutdown CB? How many guys did he shutdown in Arizona? hes 5-10 174 and was told by Denny Green that it was time to retire. But yeah he can be a "shut down" CB. His last good season was 2000!

Your CB's obvouisly were a weak spot if your team signed washed up players like Starks and Scott. To depend on Randall Gay or Poole to cover guys like Jerry Porter is flat dumb and your team knows that. The only problem is they can't sign anyone who isn't past their prime.

That 21 game winning streak was done with Ty Law for the most part and the last time I checked he is playing in New York. If you think Gay,Scott,Starks, or Poole can play the way Law did you should stop arguing now.

3. Dillon had something to prove last season and he was hungary to win. I doubt you will see the same fire out of Dillon.

4. So what team you play on determines how good you are? So Dillon just got all those yards in Cinci cuz they sucked, Foreman had 100+ tackles in all of his seasons with the Bills as well in the 4-3 smart guy.

Ed Jasper is the guy who has 107 tackles and 7 sacks over the past 3 seasons in Atlanta and known as the teams best NT against the run. Pretty good for a guy who "has started less and less games for the Falcons".

If you want to know how good Derrick Burgess is ask Mike Vick, Burgess had 6 tackles and 2 sacks against Vick in the NFC Title game. You don't see to many DE's taking down Mike Vick multiple times. Burgess also had a sack in the Super Bowl. He provided a solid pass rush over the entire 2004 playoffs.

Renaldo Hill was solid in Arizona as a matter of fact Denny Green wanted him back. He didn't want your guy Starks though, he asked him to retire

By me saying we will 5-7 new starters and a new base defense is saying we will have a new defensive unit and a better one b/c they can only get better. Your defense was the best but now you have fvcked that up. No more Ty Law, no more Tedy Bruschi, no more Ted Johnosn, no more leader and coach on the field, no more Romeo Crennel = a worse defense for you.

You say the Raiders haven't improved dramitcally shows you don't know what in the hell your talking about. We have signed some of the best players available on the defensive side of the ball and will have a running game and the best WR in the game to add to our already solid offense. Everyone thinks we will finish 8-8 at worst, which would be a 3 game upgrade. Some think we can take the AFC West. So for you to say that shows how smart you are, which is not very.

One defensive impact player: Jay Foreman, Derrick Burgess, both have played solid. Foreman has played very well I already mentioned their stats.

And the bookies We went 5-11 last year you won the Super Bowl and your @ home and your only up a TD? Give me a break. How many times do the bookies get it right smart guy? See that is what I am talking about, once again you prove you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

[The Shocker]

LA 2
PA aka pussie ass 0

[problemcauser]

lol this debate reminds me of freestyle battles at our skools lunch break...lol...good debates from both sides...just been realistic..thats all...