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Thread: Raiders more in salary cap purgatory this year..... per Paul Gutierezz

  1. #61
    Dirt Dog is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by dry23 View Post
    That's straight up disgusting
    For what we got to show for it You are right it Is Disgusting.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skvllz View Post
    Yes and Al had for the most part learned not to do that with what happened in those cases... Seymour's extension was market value for a player of his caliber at that time. And that was a developmental move if anything that actually payed dividends when we had one of the best front fours in football in 2011. How quickly people forget the expectations of this line going into 2012. Moss and Hall did not affect our cap in 2011. - you have a lot of nerve talking about agendas.

    Do you remember what happened with Nnamdi or did YOU choose to forget what Al said at the time when it came to resigning him ? Without Palmer wed be under the cap right now. Again the cap is not even my main concern, it's what we're doing with the pieces we have.

    Even though you may be incapable of it.. Lets put the Al thing aside for a second..

    You are saying this team doesn't have talent. I'm saying this team wouldn't know what to do with talent if it had it. We're jus gonna have to agree to disagree if you can't see that given the teams performance and regression last year.


    And don't underestimate the power of unity. The most united this team was last year was actually the steelers game... Mostly because the cheap shot to DHB bringing the team together when it mattered most. That's football. These coaches thus far aren't bringing that out of these players or even the players you want, whoever they may be. Compare the demeanor of our head coach with any winning head coach and its incredibly apparent how in over his head he was last year.
    You are delusional if you think that making Seymour the highest paid defensive player in football a couple years ago was paying market value and that we had one of the best defensive lines. 5+ ypc, epic collapse after epic collapse, film of Seymour walking around.

    Sure heart and intangibles mean something, but they don't overcome the vast problems we have. More to the point, many of our players were sackless whining pukes. You seem to know what you see when you watch football, but you are missing something big. When your team gets gashed by the run over and over, and especially when it gets worse in the second half, they are weak heartless pussies and you have to get rid of them.

    Agendas - for some bizarre reason you have appointed yourself "defender of the memory of Al". That is what drove you over the deep end before. Get with the times, and get with the thread. Start figuring out how many of these overpaid underachieving guys we can afford to cut before the cap hits from accelerated bonuses become too much to field a team. We can leave the "unity" plan for another day.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skvllz View Post
    Where did the money come from to sign someone like Briesel to 20 million for 2 years?
    Brisiel's contract was for five years and almost $20 million. When we signed him he was regarded as a great zone blocking guard and we were switching to a zone blocking scheme. All things considered, it was a very reasonable contract at the time.

    EDIT: Here is a source for that info Oakland Raiders sign CB Ronald Bartell, G Mike Brisiel - ESPN

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. anthracis View Post
    That's not what it was about. It was about having almost exactly the same group of players but seeing much worse results. I don't think any of us would have had much of a problem with a team that finished less than 8-8 but looked strong doing it. But we got waxed on a weekly basis and the only reason we aren't getting the #2 spot in the draft is because the Jags lost their starting RB and QB in about a ten minute span. They were kicking our asses before that point.

    The 2012 Raiders were a pathetic mess by any standard. We deserved better than that.
    Right, we were EXACTLY the same. Unless of course you factor in the ownership changed, the GM changed, the coaching staff changed and oh yeah here a few players we didn't have either:
    Routt
    Boss
    Bush
    Wimbley
    Cartwright
    Campbell
    Johnson
    Eugene
    Satele
    Schilens
    Henderson

    But yeah, we were EXACTLY the same team.
    Pain heals, chicks dig scars, glory lasts forever...

  5. #65
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    This thread should be required reading for every glue sniffer, Al Davis/JC/TP6 nut hugger on the site. If they parrot "verge of the playoffs, 8-8!!! Bring back Hue!" as a site we should be able to whack them like a tackling dummy.

    This team is far from being out of the woods with the old man'd poor drafting and penchant for overpaying, over hyped, past their prime players.

    Future looks better as we only have a few more years to purge the Al Davis Scholarship players.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skvllz View Post
    Sigh. And that too is sad.
    Yes, we all are broken up about this.



    Tito! Tito!

  7. #67
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    Taking the hit on McClain, Heyward-Bey and Kelly to get some other talent in here would be a lot better than seeing them in S&B again

    With Seymour and Lechler, we're much better off using that money to sign Wheeler, Bryant and Myers

    Asking DMC, Palmer and Huff to restructure would be my suggestion as they all play pretty integral pieces until we have better choices

    Our major FA needs would need to be DT, DE, CB and OL when Seymour is gone and we let Brisiel walk. We don't really have any CBs so getting one in FA is imperative.

    I would throw some major cash at Cary Williams from the Ravens or Brent Grimes from the Falcons if it's possible. We need someone in the secondary that can get everyone on the same page and I would love to see Williams in S&B after he's played so well in Baltimore

  8. #68
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    Here's how I see it: do you think the 2011 Raiders could have made it to the Super Bowl? I don't, and therefore we should not be satisfied with that team. Our financial situation was not much better in 2011, so what you saw is what you would've gotten. No key FA signings, and even if we drafted well we'd see an outflux of players leaving in FA every year because we wouldn't be able to pay them. So, even if the theory that the 2011 Raiders were only a few pieces away from competing were true (which I don't really think), we would never really be able to climb the mountain to glory. Maybe we would've had a few playoff seasons, but none where we got past the likes of the Ravens, Patriots, Broncos or Texans. If we continue down this path, there is a good chance we will be able to compete with those teams some day. As in anything in life, there is no guarantee, but successful franchises build how we're building now. It is nearly impossible to operate year in and year out with a ridiculous cap situation. Tear her down and build her right.

  9. #69
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    As I read it, the article's title doesn't match up with the text. We don't appear to be in salary cap purgatory. Rather, we're just fine. Seymour, Kelly, McClain are likely gone. That puts us well under the cap. Then we have edge cases like Briesel and Bey who can be released if necessary or desirable. Palmer can take a pay cut. McFadden can be extended to reduce his cap number, cut or just let him ride out the final year.

    I don't see the problem here. We aren't in purgatory, hell, or whatever other term any of these writers want to throw out there. We will have plenty of room under the cap so long as RM continues to be fiscally responsible, and I can't see him overpaying wildly like Al just to get a few talented players to come to Oakland. Those days are gone.

    So we continue with the rebuilding process, free from financial constraints. But that doesn't really mean anything. We want to draft well and fill holes with sensible FA signings, allowing us to develop and retain talent instead of seeing it walk out the door because we brought in some aging goombah for twice his market value and now we're up against it. Hoo boy, I'm glad we've moved on from that.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinz View Post
    You are delusional if you think that making Seymour the highest paid defensive player in football a couple years ago was paying market value and that we had one of the best defensive lines. 5+ ypc, epic collapse after epic collapse, film of Seymour walking around.

    Sure heart and intangibles mean something, but they don't overcome the vast problems we have. More to the point, many of our players were sackless whining pukes. You seem to know what you see when you watch football, but you are missing something big. When your team gets gashed by the run over and over, and especially when it gets worse in the second half, they are weak heartless pussies and you have to get rid of them.

    Agendas - for some bizarre reason you have appointed yourself "defender of the memory of Al". That is what drove you over the deep end before. Get with the times, and get with the thread. Start figuring out how many of these overpaid underachieving guys we can afford to cut before the cap hits from accelerated bonuses become too much to field a team. We can leave the "unity" plan for another day.
    No what drove me off 'the deep end' was the amount of hypocrisy and double standards at play on this board. But i've since realized how dumb it is punching a brick wall. I will point a few of them out.

    Many aren't holding RM equally accountable for HIS actions, and even worse with DA.. until I mentioned the Branch contract many people didn't even realize how ludicrous that signing was at the time, and I like Branch.

    So for a team that was 20 million over the cap.. how did we get that money to sign him to such a ludicrous contract? By BAD restructures.. for players like Palmer for one.. and there are more. Bartell got 3 million for what? where did THAT 3 million come from?

    As far as Seymour.. yes it was market value.. And instead of quitting after his pay day (as has been the case with many FAs here) He was the highest rated DT in football for the first half of 2011.. the TEAM collapsed down the stretch due to inadequate coaching for the most part.

    The front four was exemplary at stopping the run last year. and we finished 7th in the league in sacks largely due to our front four. it was the horrible play from our LBs that attributed to our bad run defense as well as bad coaching, bresnahan wasn't exactly dick lebau.

    I wouldn't even be bringing up Al if this thread wasn't rampant with misinformation and double standards about him.. As far as you labeling me the "defender of Al" it's only because I have the gall to pull it off.. and also, I'm only defending Al because you guys go out of your way to slander the guy with mistruths and have no idea who to really hold accountable anymore. Blaming Al has always been the easy way out. AL is DEAD and PLENTY of missteps have been made thus far by RM.. the record is not some coincidence. I actually am willing to give RM another offseason though and I like he was able to admit his mistakes by fixing certain things with the staff.. I wouldn't of even been defending Al if i didn't think he also hadn't learned from some of his mistakes.. we weren't ludicrously paying for players that hadn't performed HERE.. Seymour had proven himself here at the time of his extension and we were drafting well for the most part and trading down, etc. I also liked where Hue was at before Al passed.. all those things gave me optimism in the last couple seasons.. I'm wondering exactly where the optimism is coming from now.. besides with the things i've already mentioned? To think this team is on the path to the super bowl all because Al is gone now is where the real delusion lies. And I know you think we are 5 years away or whatever.. but it's impossible to account for variables with that timeline. I'm also not convinced we are going to make all the moves necessary in 1 year or 5 years.

    All those corrections aside, because it really takes away from my bigger point, until we can develop players correctly, it won't matter how much money we have. And this was a problem before 2010.. and it's a problem now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiders Baby! View Post
    Here's how I see it: do you think the 2011 Raiders could have made it to the Super Bowl? I don't, and therefore we should not be satisfied with that team. Our financial situation was not much better in 2011, so what you saw is what you would've gotten. No key FA signings, and even if we drafted well we'd see an outflux of players leaving in FA every year because we wouldn't be able to pay them. So, even if the theory that the 2011 Raiders were only a few pieces away from competing were true (which I don't really think), we would never really be able to climb the mountain to glory. Maybe we would've had a few playoff seasons, but none where we got past the likes of the Ravens, Patriots, Broncos or Texans. If we continue down this path, there is a good chance we will be able to compete with those teams some day. As in anything in life, there is no guarantee, but successful franchises build how we're building now. It is nearly impossible to operate year in and year out with a ridiculous cap situation. Tear her down and build her right.
    Continue down what path? I mean.. what?!

    The better question is do you believe a team can turn into a super bowl contender overnight? The fact that you guys are so close-minded in regards to the progress we could of made as opposed to regressing is ludicrious. RM hasn't exactly mastered the cap either.. but really it's been bad coaching both last year before RM, and bad coaching after RM that has been the main plight of this team. Get whoever you want in here.. with the coaching we've had it wouldn't of made a difference. I'm only hoping for progress in that capacity at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by VEfreak View Post
    Brisiel's contract was for five years and almost $20 million. When we signed him he was regarded as a great zone blocking guard and we were switching to a zone blocking scheme. All things considered, it was a very reasonable contract at the time.

    EDIT: Here is a source for that info Oakland Raiders sign CB Ronald Bartell, G Mike Brisiel - ESPN
    Ok.. 5 years.. still he is the highest paid olineman on our team and one of the most overpaid players on this team and he was brought in STRICTLY for Knapp.. again you didn't answer my question.. where did that money COME from? weren't we ludicrously over the cap?

    Again the fact the fact that he was brought in for Knapp goes back to my initial point and problem with this team . the COACHES. Knapp did this to us before with Hall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willmark View Post
    This thread should be required reading for every glue sniffer, Al Davis/JC/TP6 nut hugger on the site. If they parrot "verge of the playoffs, 8-8!!! Bring back Hue!" as a site we should be able to whack them like a tackling dummy.

    This team is far from bring out of the woods with the old man'd poor drafting and penchant for overpaying, overhyped past their prime players.

    Future looks better as we only have a few more years to purge the Al Davis Scholarship players.
    No one wants to bring back Hue.. at least I don't. He was insubordinate. It's not black and white.

    But Yes RM hasn't overpaid ANYONE thus far lol.. You people are so biased it makes me sick.

    Moss and Hall had NOTHING to do with the progress this team was making and did not affect our cap on the teams that were actually showing progress.

    If Al was still making signings like that I'd be all over him just like I was then. Paying players who perform well HERE is another discussion. But he let Nnamdi go because, and I quote " you can get 3 good players for that price ".. you can't tell me Al wasn't learning from his mistakes. Especially after how Jamarcus was shown the door.

    make all the excuses you want for 8-8 but the team was PROGRESSING until Al died.

    The funny thing is.. wasn't Hall brought in because of Knapp's cosign too?!? if i remember correctly that's what happened.. due to his time in ATL... so if Briesel gets a pass than Hall def should too.. at least we cut our losses with Hall ASAP.

    actually i found Al Davis's quote addressing Kiffin..

    For example, with the exception of Gibril Wilson, you were involved in recruiting all free agents and determining salaries for them and you were explicit about your desire to sign Javon Walker and DeAngelo Hall amongst others. All were a must to sign in your eyes, Hall, in particular, because he played for Greg Knapp in Atlanta and Knapp gave him high grades. Do not run from that now.
    If you're going to give RM a pass for breisel then you better give Al a pass for Hall. That's what I mean by double standards.

    I might of been the only person on earth who didn't like the Moss trade at the TIME it happened. Moss and Hall were never all-pro here, Seymour was. Stop living in the past.. and that goes for a lot of you.

    There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the future is looking better besides the coaching changes this offseason.. THATS IT. I'm hoping for a good draft and I'll gauge our potential for success OBJECTIVELY going forward as I always have, Al or no Al.
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  11. #71
    kinz is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skvllz View Post
    As far as Seymour.. yes it was market value.. And instead of quitting after his pay day (as has been the case with many FAs here) He was the highest rated DT in football for the first half of 2011.. the TEAM collapsed down the stretch due to inadequate coaching for the most part.

    The front four was exemplary at stopping the run last year. and we finished 7th in the league in sacks largely due to our front four. it was the horrible play from our LBs that attributed to our bad run defense as well as bad coaching, bresnahan wasn't exactly dick lebau.
    Dude, you are out of your mind. The Seymour signing was a complete joke. That front four was exemplary at stopping the run when they felt like it, that ain't stopping the run. Cry all you want about spending 4 mil on Brisiel, Al spent (roughly)

    Seymour 15
    Wimbley 12
    Routt 12
    Kelly 9
    Ro 7
    Huff 10
    Johnson 4
    Curry 5

    These were guys Al hand picked, made trades and gave up lots of picks to get. They made a putrid defense.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinz View Post
    Dude, you are out of your mind. The Seymour signing was a complete joke. That front four was exemplary at stopping the run when they felt like it, that ain't stopping the run. Cry all you want about spending 4 mil on Brisiel, Al spent (roughly)

    Seymour 15
    Wimbley 12
    Routt 12
    Kelly 9
    Ro 7
    Huff 10
    Johnson 4
    Curry 5

    These were guys Al hand picked, made trades and gave up lots of picks to get. They made a putrid defense.
    Exactly.And these signings are why we are in this mess today.Dont forget the worst signing of them all...Hue Jackson and his "greatest trade in the history of the NFL".Seymour was grossly over payed to re sign only to save the embarrassment of trading for him in the 1st place and letting him walk.He wouldnt have gotten 1/2 of that on the open market

  13. #73
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    Skvlls, let Al RIP, the man was great in his day, probably the best sports franchise owner ever.
    But it's a losing argument if you try to act like Al didn't get old and run the team into the ground, even the best of them can't last forever.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinz View Post
    Dude, you are out of your mind. The Seymour signing was a complete joke. That front four was exemplary at stopping the run when they felt like it, that ain't stopping the run. Cry all you want about spending 4 mil on Brisiel, Al spent (roughly)

    Seymour 15
    Wimbley 12
    Routt 12
    Kelly 9
    Ro 7
    Huff 10
    Johnson 4
    Curry 5

    These were guys Al hand picked, made trades and gave up lots of picks to get. They made a putrid defense.
    Mark Davis traded for Curry after Al passed away. Ro's salary came from his draft positition. The rest were Al signings though your numbers are inflated. Looks like you took the highest year of their multi-year deals. The averages were lower and often a player never finishes a contract which even inflates the average.

  15. #75
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    Considering we were like 14 mil over last year I don't think it's worse

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