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Thread: NE should have given up on Belichick in 2000

  1. #16
    Dark Gable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crizpynutz View Post
    I'm not sure yet about Allen, but I don't agree with everything you have here.

    #1 Were we really going up? Back-to-back 8-8 seasons is more like maintaining mediocrity, especially considering the state of the AFC West. One could argue we peaked just as easily.

    #2 There are more than just a Bellichek; Bill Walsh, Jimmy Johnson, etc. - it's not as rare as a winning lotto ticket. There are easily at least 15-20 great coaches that started out with less than 6 wins and became successful. The reason this argument even comes up, is because people say he should be fired and that he's a joke because he lost so many games. This point only highlights that this isn't necessarily a black and white thing.

    You are entitled to your opinion, I have mine, and everyone has their own. I will say this, I don't have blind hope, I see reason for hope - not blind and not complete and not unquestioned.

    Admittedly it is debatable how far along we were, but 8-8 is better than 4-12 any way you slice it. Especially when you consider we finished 1-8 down the stretch with 3 of our wins coming against 2 win teams. And outside of Denver the division was every bit as crappy this season so it is pretty obvious we took a step back.

    Also I admit the Lotto analogy was stretching it a little to make the point, but I think it is safe to say that there are literally hundreds more coaches that were failures than the 15-20 success stories you mentioned. Also most of those people took over teams that had comparable or worse records before they became the coach, which is not so for DA. As I said I hope DA works out because I am sick of the losing, as I am sure we all are. I'm just personally not seeing a lot of reason for optimism.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Gable View Post
    With all due respect, I absolutely hate this argument. First off you can clearly see the Patriots were already trending downwards when he was hired, where as you can make an argument we were going in the opposite direction before DA showed up. Furthermore there are a million more examples of bad coaches who were just bad coaches who never got better. Would keeping Art Shell 2.0 or Joe Bugel really have been the answer? After all they only had on year as coach. Maybe if they only had more time we could have been a contender. Pointing to the rare examples of a Belicheck is almost like claiming you are likely to have a winning lotto ticket because somebody else once won the lottery. It doesn't work like that. And for the record Belicheck had a much stronger resume than DA and that tends to buy a little patience. Either way DA is our coach and i hope it works out, but people need to realize that not everyone is willing to drink the kool-aid. After the last decade, blind hope doesn't work for me. I need to see it on the field, and so far the Reg, DA era has been a complete and total failure.
    How is a team trending upwards losing their best pass rusher and best CB? Take Clay Matthews off of the Packers and their CB C Woodson... Wait that can't be compared because those are great players, on a great team. We lack talent... Next!!!
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  3. #18
    red dragon is offline Limited Membership
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    I don't know if DA will be a great head coach, statistically speaking it's unlikely, but thats no reason to give up on him after one season. As op shows even great coaches can have a slew start to their carreers, especially when they are taking over to start a rebuild. Anyone who claims we weren't starting a rebuild is lieing to themselves. We were starting one under Al when we lost Ninamdi and Miller, we just didn't realize it because we won 8 games on a very easy scheduale.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUSTWINBABY9111 View Post
    How is a team trending upwards losing their best pass rusher and best CB? Take Clay Matthews off of the Packers and their CB C Woodson... Wait that can't be compared because those are great players, on a great team. We lack talent... Next!!!

    When your best pass rusher and cornerback are that mediocre it really shouldn't be that hard to replace them. Especially if Reggie is the great talent evaluator people claim. We are talking about Kamerion Winmbley and Stanford Routt right? Heck, I would have helped Routt pack his bags he sucked so much.
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  5. #20
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    Belichek failed with the Browns before landing the Patriot gig.

    So Allen needs to be fired from here, and hired elsewhere to be a winner after one year of mediocrity? Or we should be looking for that one time HC retreads? Where's that list, Singletary, Nolan....yes, that pile is pretty darn impressive.
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  6. #21
    red dragon is offline Limited Membership
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Gable View Post
    When your best pass rusher and cornerback are that mediocre it really shouldn't be that hard to replace them. Especially if Reggie is the great talent evaluator people claim. We are talking about Kamerion Winmbley and Stanford Routt right? Heck, I would have helped Routt pack his bags he sucked so much.
    Ya it would be easy if we did it with a normal cap situation, but we wernt. Reggie had to try to find guys who play as well for much less, and in some places he did but in others he didn't. He should get some credit for finding even one player for the value he did in Wheeler and our practice squad turned starters at CB.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Gable View Post
    Admittedly it is debatable how far along we were, but 8-8 is better than 4-12 any way you slice it. Especially when you consider we finished 1-8 down the stretch with 3 of our wins coming against 2 win teams. And outside of Denver the division was every bit as crappy this season so it is pretty obvious we took a step back.

    Also I admit the Lotto analogy was stretching it a little to make the point, but I think it is safe to say that there are literally hundreds more coaches that were failures than the 15-20 success stories you mentioned. Also most of those people took over teams that had comparable or worse records before they became the coach, which is not so for DA. As I said I hope DA works out because I am sick of the losing, as I am sure we all are. I'm just personally not seeing a lot of reason for optimism.
    Agreed, it's not that all/most coaches start poorly and become great. For everyone one that does two more don't. Obviously we took a step back. The question is did we take 1 step back in order to take 2 steps forward? Was 8-8 our peak and now we can go higher? I don't know yet. I see some positive things from Allen and just feel he deserves another shot.

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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonicus View Post
    I've read some of your past posts. You always come across as respectful, so I'm trying to remain equally respectful when I ask this, but: Couldn't this have gone in one of the other 20 or so DA threads?



    Cool, but did he really mention anything that hasn't already been discussed ad nauseum?

    And for the record, I've already said I'm alright (not like I have any say in the matter, anyway) with giving DA another year, so let's not play the "hater" card. I'm merely saying that whenever someone starts a thread even remotely suggesting we should replace DA with someone else, they're immediately attacked by posters asking if another thread is necessary to address the issue, but when the opposite is done, nobody seems to take exception with it.
    You are definitely correct. It could have been added to another DA thread but I felt this deserved its own discussion on how the Pats would have turned out if Belichick was fired and I was comparing it to DA (Not that DA is Belichick, but you never know). I can see how you may feel about this belonging in another thread and I respect that. I have no issues if a mod wants to move it there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonicus View Post
    All arguments that have also been brought up in the past, but nobody wants to listen to them. I've already brought up several arguments as to why I'm cautiously optimistic this coming year with regards to DA's abilities, so I'll leave it at that.

    Hoping for the best, expecting the worst. IMO, only a fool would want DA to fail, but also only a fool would give DA a pass. If he doesn't produce a 9-7 record or better, he needs to be out the door. We were essentially told that the reason we sucked this year was because of Knapp by them getting rid of him. In a much better position cap-wise (no, I'm not saying it's ideal, but better), with both him and Tarver having had a full year under their belts, and assuming we grab a game-changer at #3 in the draft, there's no more room for excuses. 8-8 might save his hide for another year, but 7-9 or worse needs to point him towards the exit.
    Lofty expectations considering how many players will be cut, expectations are great but realism is where we live here on earth. If DA goes 9-7 with current roster, he should be coach of the year/decade/century. I understand where your coming from, but I think a 6-10 finish is more realistic with being more competitive week in and week out. 6 good solid wins next year is progress, but I hope you are right 9-7 would be great. I am not giving DA a pass I guess I am just being realistic. I am one that doesn't place all the blame on Knapp, even if the offense would have been great the defense was so bad 3/4 of the season, they could have never overcome that, we were lucky to win 4 games, this was really a two win team, lets face reality.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Gable View Post
    With all due respect, I absolutely hate this argument. First off you can clearly see the Patriots were already trending downwards when he was hired, where as you can make an argument we were going in the opposite direction before DA showed up. Furthermore there are a million more examples of bad coaches who were just bad coaches who never got better. Would keeping Art Shell 2.0 or Joe Bugel really have been the answer? After all they only had on year as coach. Maybe if they only had more time we could have been a contender. Pointing to the rare examples of a Belicheck is almost like claiming you are likely to have a winning lotto ticket because somebody else once won the lottery. It doesn't work like that. And for the record Belicheck had a much stronger resume than DA and that tends to buy a little patience. Either way DA is our coach and i hope it works out, but people need to realize that not everyone is willing to drink the kool-aid. After the last decade, blind hope doesn't work for me. I need to see it on the field, and so far the Reg, DA era has been a complete and total failure.
    10-6, 9-7, 8-8 isn't much of a downward trend. They had expectations to win and that is why Pete Carrol was fired. To say that Belichick had a much stronger record than DA? How so? Was it the juggernaut he built in Cleveland a few year prior to arriving in NE?

    Comparing DA to Art Shell 2.0 and Bugel is comparing apples to oranges. Bugel had a serious squad with talent and made them them a terrible team. Why was there even Art Shell 2.0 considering he couldn't get it done with Marcus Allen and Bo Jack? You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

    I am not definitely not drinking cool-aid, I do enough of that working for the Air Force. I'm just trying to show a different prospective and trying to be one of the few positive people on this board. I'm convinced we could win the next 3 superbowls and somehow, someone would find a way to be sour about it.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAF_Sgt View Post
    You are definitely correct. It could have been added to another DA thread but I felt this deserved its own discussion on how the Pats would have turned out if Belichick was fired and I was comparing it to DA (Not that DA is Belichick, but you never know). I can see how you may feel about this belonging in another thread and I respect that. I have no issues if a mod wants to move it there.
    For the record, I have no issues with you having started this thread. I just said what I did to point out that there's bias here, and as long as one starts a thread that mirrors the beliefs of some, in spite of it having been discussed quite a bit in the past, all is right with the world. If someone had started a thread saying we should consider a different HC and get rid of DA, venom would've been spewed all over his thread, along with the "Did you have to start a new thread just for this?" and "Aren't there enough 'Fire DA' threads already out there?" responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by xcraider37 View Post
    Lofty expectations considering how many players will be cut, expectations are great but realism is where we live here on earth. If DA goes 9-7 with current roster, he should be coach of the year/decade/century. I understand where your coming from, but I think a 6-10 finish is more realistic with being more competitive week in and week out. 6 good solid wins next year is progress, but I hope you are right 9-7 would be great. I am not giving DA a pass I guess I am just being realistic. I am one that doesn't place all the blame on Knapp, even if the offense would have been great the defense was so bad 3/4 of the season, they could have never overcome that, we were lucky to win 4 games, this was really a two win team, lets face reality.
    It's all about perception and difference in opinion. All you have to do is look at the back-and-forth Dark Gable and USAF_Sgt had. DG sees things one way, USAF another.

    I could just as easily argue that both Cable and Hue (in a sense, Cable even more so) should've gotten the coach of the year award, all things considered. For example, in a game I thought we would lose for sure, Cable stated he had 'gotten the green light' to blitz more and he and Marshall dialed up blitzes at the right time. McNabb was running for his life and looked like a fish out of water. Cable also stripped Knapp of play calling duties, so he was essentially a first time HC (at the NFL level) along with OC duties (remember who the QBs were?), and went 8-8. Coach of the year candidate if I ever saw one.

    Hue, a rookie HC, lost Al Davis and basically had to assume GM duties. He also had Bresnahan as a DC. Our defensive breakdowns are responsible for at least another 2 wins, which should've had us at 10-6 that year. Coach of the year candidate, all things considered? I think so.

    Our offense was absolute garbage this year. Between both DA and Knapp, they hadn't figured out what Reece could do. Are you kidding me? I'm pretty sure most of the NFL, along with just about everybody here, knew exactly what Reece could do. I believe there were at least another 2 games DA could've and should've won, making this a 6-10 team minimum. I won't mention which games, because I'm sure you'd disagree, based on your comment that we're realistically a 2-win team.

    So no, I don't believe 9-7 (stretching at 8-8) is out of the realm of possibility when DA and Tarver can no longer use the rookie excuse and when we're picking #3 overall. Cable and Hue got to 8-8 in their first year (Cable's first FULL year), so why can't DA in his second?

  12. #27
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    I don't know how you can even compare the 2, one was a team on the decline while the other was on its way up (even if up was just mediocre)

    How can you say the team regressed? They won 3 of their last 5 games! How did we finish?

    How can you compare the two when their average loss was less than a touchdown. They were competitive in almost every football game. How many games were we competitive in?

    This is not even a debate because your talking apples and oranges. I will accept your point that one year is too soon but everyone's problem isn't the win/loss recorded, it's how incompetent and non competitive we were as the year went on.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAF_Sgt View Post
    10-6, 9-7, 8-8 isn't much of a downward trend. They had expectations to win and that is why Pete Carrol was fired. To say that Belichick had a much stronger record than DA? How so? Was it the juggernaut he built in Cleveland a few year prior to arriving in NE?

    Comparing DA to Art Shell 2.0 and Bugel is comparing apples to oranges. Bugel had a serious squad with talent and made them them a terrible team. Why was there even Art Shell 2.0 considering he couldn't get it done with Marcus Allen and Bo Jack? You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

    I am not definitely not drinking cool-aid, I do enough of that working for the Air Force. I'm just trying to show a different prospective and trying to be one of the few positive people on this board. I'm convinced we could win the next 3 superbowls and somehow, someone would find a way to be sour about it.

    How is 3 straight years of getting worse not a trend? And while I do agree we were far from Super Bowl ready, I don't buy for a second we weren't more talented than 4-12. We really did not lose much of anything from a team that had won 16 games over the previous 2 years. The talent level imo, was comparable to 2010 and 2011 but we had far worse results. I have no problem with people being optimistic, but they should understand that not everyone is going to be the same way (especially after the last decade of futility.)
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  14. #29
    Live.B.A.Raida is offline Banned
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    In the case of DA many ppl here like to try and cover **** up with sugar. Maybe next year he will look like #1 instead of #2 (****) which is still pretty bad but should be good enough for many.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okie View Post
    I don't know how you can even compare the 2, one was a team on the decline while the other was on its way up (even if up was just mediocre)

    How can you say the team regressed? They won 3 of their last 5 games! How did we finish?

    How can you compare the two when their average loss was less than a touchdown. They were competitive in almost every football game. How many games were we competitive in?

    This is not even a debate because your talking apples and oranges. I will accept your point that one year is too soon but everyone's problem isn't the win/loss recorded, it's how incompetent and non competitive we were as the year went on.
    If your talking about the 2000 pats they actually lost 3 of their last 5.
    They were competitive though esspecially on defense. They only lost 2 games by more than one score that year. The 2001 Pats actually started horribly too and looked like a terrible team losing 3 of 4 and 4 of 7 before going on a tear. Got destroyed a couple of times too in those first 7 games while also registering a couple of blowouts as well.

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