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Thread: How relevant are Oklahoma Thunder of what can happen to us?

  1. #1
    Carboran is offline Limited Membership
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    How relevant are Oklahoma Thunder of what can happen to us?

    I know, I know, basketball is completely different, fewer players yada yada. But I find the similarities striking. This is from Sam Presti's bio - OKC's GM

    In his first move as GM of the Sonics, he traded multiple time All-Star Ray Allen to the Boston Celtics, where he helped win the NBA title in 2008, in a large trade that included the draft rights to Jeff Green. He shortly thereafter traded All-Star Rashard Lewis to Orlando for a 2nd round draft pick and a $9 million dollar trade exception, which Presti later used to land Kurt Thomas and 2 first-round draft picks from Phoenix.[2] To lead the team he selected P.J. Carlesimo as Head Coach, who he knew as an assistant coach at San Antonio. In Presti's first season in charge the team was 20-62, the worst in the history on the franchise. Toward the end of this season the league authorized a move and after a court battle & settlement the team was allowed to move to Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Subsequently they were renamed the Thunder.
    During his second season, the Thunder began the season 1-12 and Presti fired P. J. Carlesimo, and hired assistant coach Scott Brooks as the interim coach. Under Brooks, the Thunder went 22-47. Presti acquired Thabo Sefolosha from the Chicago Bulls for a late first round pick.[3] Presti also initiated a trade for Tyson Chandler from the New Orleans Hornets for two backups (Chris Wilcox and Joe Smith), but the trade was later rescinded because Chandler failed his required physical
    Several takeaways:
    1) New, unproven GM (McKenzie) comes and blows up a roster by cutting valuable players (according to people on this board), such as (Routt, McClain etc.)
    2) He hires a new coach (Allen), who fails to yield results in year 1
    3) Cuts a lot of other deadwood and trades for picks
    4) Fires the headcoach when he doesn't perform in year 2
    5) By year 3, we see results
    6) GM also considered a salary cap genius

    So, what's my point?

    1) Goes to show how ridiculous it is to expect short term results. The people calling for McKenzie's head, would have had Presti run out of town after one year. How DARED he trade Ray Allen???
    2) It takes guts to make unpopular decisions and stick to your vision
    3) Don't stick with a coach, for the sake of sticking with a coach. i think Allen needs more time. But NOT 3 years, if we have no results next year, he needs to be gone. Who knows who our Scotty Brooks is
    4) In the spirit of point 3, knapp needs to go. He is our P.J. Carlesimo. Gave it a shot and it didn't work
    5) We need to blow up the squad. See what we can get for the vets and rebuild with young prospects.
    6) Don't cry when next season sucks
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  2. #2
    Carboran is offline Limited Membership
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    By the, we need to build through the Draft. Yesterday, I heard the statistic that the vast majority of Packers starters have only played for the Packers. This is huge. This is how you build winners.

    Also Palmer is perfect to have during this period of transition. He has 4 more years left in him. That will be plenty to groom a successor. ANd we will have a QB ready, right as things are starting to click
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    Great warm and fuzzy post but you site one team, one situation. The downside is that there are a bunch more instances of these same kind of moves being made and them not working out.

    It could happen but Jamarcus Russell could sign with the Patriots, take over for an injured Brady and go on to win the MVP and comeback player of the year next year.

    Your right though, it could happen, just playing the odds though, dont bet on it.

    :p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Okie View Post
    Great warm and fuzzy post but you site one team, one situation. The downside is that there are a bunch more instances of these same kind of moves being made and them not working out.

    It could happen but Jamarcus Russell could sign with the Patriots, take over for an injured Brady and go on to win the MVP and comeback player of the year next year.

    Your right though, it could happen, just playing the odds though, dont bet on it.

    :p
    All we can do is wait patiently to see what the outcome is...
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    Carboran is offline Limited Membership
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okie View Post
    Great warm and fuzzy post but you site one team, one situation. The downside is that there are a bunch more instances of these same kind of moves being made and them not working out.

    It could happen but Jamarcus Russell could sign with the Patriots, take over for an injured Brady and go on to win the MVP and comeback player of the year next year.

    Your right though, it could happen, just playing the odds though, dont bet on it.

    :p
    Fair enough, but I feel that this is very relevant. The big regression in Year 1, the decision to move "big name" players. Growing through the draft instead with high-priced free agents etc.

    Off top of my head, I think this is a great example

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    I am an OKC fan as well as a raiders fan and there's no similarities. Ray Allen asked for a trade as he didn't want to go through a rebuild. Also Presti hit grand slams on 4 first round draft picks in a 3 year span (Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka). Westbrook and Harden were said to be drafted a little higher than anticipated by draft experts but Presti has an eye for talent ala bellichek/pioli a few years back with the pats. Add in a few shrewd Al Davis trades and we currently have the roster they do. Unless the raiders get 4 home runs anytime soon along with a competent coaching staff then they won't do ****. Also scott brooks is an idiot and one of the main reasons they lost in the finals. Only reason he looks good is because of the talent ala barry switzer for the cowboys in the 90s.

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    How relevant are Oklahoma Thunder of what can happen to us?

    We don't have a freaking Kevin Durant, we have a bunch of Kendrick Perkins, useless, old, overpayed

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    Carboran is offline Limited Membership
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    Quote Originally Posted by okld-rdr View Post
    We don't have a freaking Kevin Durant, we have a bunch of Kendrick Perkins, useless, old, overpayed
    That's my point. He traded talent for picks and rebuilt. We need to trade DMC and see what we can get for him. Probably a 3rd and a 6th rounder after this season, unfortunately.

    We just need to go all in on rebuilding.

    Lechler? Not sure what we can get for him, but we don't NEED him (even though he has been my favorite player)

    etc.

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    McKenzie is trying to bulid the team long term. His moves prove me that.
    Also, a team that will be build through draft. Forget those divas/free agents with huge salary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carboran View Post
    That's my point. He traded talent for picks and rebuilt. We need to trade DMC and see what we can get for him. Probably a 3rd and a 6th rounder after this season, unfortunately.

    We just need to go all in on rebuilding.

    Lechler? Not sure what we can get for him, but we don't NEED him (even though he has been my favorite player)

    etc.
    We'll only get a compensatory pick for Lechler if he's signed by another team, a bit like Aso, Miller etc.

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    it is possible that RM may go on to succeed without DA.

    so far this year i can think of a few knocks on DA beyond the staff he has picked:

    came into first game unprepared - did not have a viable back up long snapper and got called on it. probably cost us that game.
    allowed Knapp to abandon the run game against cleveland when we weren't far behind had plenty of time left and were averaging 5 yards a carry.
    didn't notice any adjustment being made to help barnes handle miller on thursday night(maybe i am wrong there only saw the game once).
    In general his staff has failed to make adjustments during games and this seems to be most apparent by how we are getting owned in the 3rd quarter after halftime.

    The only plus i can give DA for on field performance is we are more disciplined regarding penalties.

    Not saying DA can't improve but at this time i can't really think of any thing positive he has shown this season.

    i'm sure there are quite a few more knocks on DA than i listed but can anyone list a few things they really like that DA has done in game or personnel wise?

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    The Houston Astros had a clearance sale over the past two seasons collecting prospects and, as a result, will have the 1st overall pick in the draft 2 years in a row. Way too early to see results yet, but baseball takes longer due to prospects playing years in the minors first, in most cases.
    The Raiders are in a much more difficult state as they have few players worth anything. That's why I would've have liked to see the Hue Jackson approach where our schemes played to the strengths of the players that we have. So I'd expect 4-5 years before we're even consistently "competitive", or, as Tommy Lasorda once said, "Those guys are 5 years away from being 5 years away!"

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    Okie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carboran View Post
    Fair enough, but I feel that this is very relevant. The big regression in Year 1, the decision to move "big name" players. Growing through the draft instead with high-priced free agents etc.

    Off top of my head, I think this is a great example
    The difference is though, they moved productive, big time, big contract players, Reggie has only moved big time contract players who underperformed last year. The key difference in your scenarios is that those guys were replaced with very productive players, Reggie has replaced big contract, underperforming players with more big contract, underperforming players (looking at restructures given to Palmer, Seymour, Huff, Kelly, etc.. and contracts awarded to Branch, Brisiel, etc...)

    Dont get me wrong, i see where you are coming from and i see how you can draw a correlation between that and what Reggies doing. Personally, ive gone back and forth on this issue. I was angry when we cut guys like Routt and Wimbley for having one bad year and most importantly cut them without any sort of stable replacement. I got over that pretty quickly by accepting the big picture of cutting dead weight from the salary by cutting players who had more of a chance at regression than progression. As soon as i got over that and began to feel warm and fuzzy about the "cut your losses" direction Reggie was heading, he slapped me in the face by spending HUGE money by extending underperforming players or giving them new contracts.

    This isnt the NBA. You cant draft one guy and his talent can compensate for 3 or 4 others and a team suddenly becomes relevant. In this game you need at least 4 or 5 of those guys on each side of the ball and fillers in between while you develop the rest. This is why i get irritated about people using the draft as an excuse for us sucking this year. Give Reggie a 1st round pick, what one player is going to take us from a 3 win team to an above .500 team this year? None! In order for the draft to work, you have to develop that talent and that typically takes 3 to 5 years (2 years for your average elite player). In that time you have to field a competent roster or you end up with a fan/money driven issue that causes you to change course. Teams dont have 5 year plans anymore, if it aint happening in 2, maybe 3, somebody is getting fired and that starts the cycle all over again.

    I get your point bud, im just saying if we are going to acknowledge that this could be a great direction and things could get better, we had damn sure better prepare ourselves that this could also be the wrong direction and things can get worse. Thats not my opinion, thats just the odds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carboran View Post
    That's my point. He traded talent for picks and rebuilt. We need to trade DMC and see what we can get for him. Probably a 3rd and a 6th rounder after this season, unfortunately.

    We just need to go all in on rebuilding.

    Lechler? Not sure what we can get for him, but we don't NEED him (even though he has been my favorite player)

    etc.
    Again wrong. OKC got kevin durant because portland went all raiders and took oden (jamarcus) and left durant to get picked 2nd (calvin johnson) which allowed the team picking 2nd to get a superstar. They traded ray allen and got jeff green who wasn't very good but the sonics at the time sucked again which allowed them to pick to 5 and take westbrook. Then followed that up with an awful year in their first year in okc which turned into james harden and had a middle round pick which turned into serge ibaka. Only trades Presti made were shipping jeff green out of town for perkins as they lost to the lakers and knew they needed size to compete with them. He also made a trade for eric maynor and daequan cook when the heat were dumping salaries to sign lebron and bosh. Also made the harden trade recently but thats after the team was already established and superstar money was being paid so therefore it was a business decision at that point. OKC and the raiders have nothing in common. Like I said until upper management hits 4 grand slams with draft picks and the coaching staff is coherent to put these players in a position to succeed it doesn't mean anything.

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