To Mark Davis Hire Gruden ~Merged

[reapersgt]

Really people name 1 good thing DA has done to make his money other than just stand there.

He's doing his job leading the least talented team in the NFL through a challenging year of transition. All the experts picked the Raiders to finish last in the AfC West and he currently has the team one game out of 2nd place. I'm not going to call this season a success but considering the lack of talent and depth on the team he is on pace to guide the Raiders to 5 or 6 wins which is what I predicted in the offseason. He hasn't exceeded my expectations but he is on pace to meet them.

I'm not going to call out a lot of you because it's natural for fans to overrate their teams talent. If you take an objective look at the roster you would have seen a bad football team that was regressing last year under Hue and further stripped of talent due to Al's salary cap mismanagement.

Soo you go that route...there isn't 1 moment that gives you a good feeling? Not 1 time where you were like that's good coaching?

Just the we suck, deal with it approach?

[Siknu]

If I was Mark I would be worrying about Season Ticket Holders not renewing their tickets when the team can't even compete in the league. The Past few years they at least competed... now they're just getting blown out. I know of 20 seats now that won't be renewed, but I'm sure there will be more if they continue to just be alright without competing.

[xcraider37]

If you can think of a pro Allen point to make other than

A: he needs time
B: he has no talent

Please share it. Has he done 1 good thing since he's been the head coach? One thing to lay your hat on and say he's our man? One thing to show he has a clue? One thing to shut everyone up? Until then you're going to see exclusively anti coach posts.

This goes back to not having a backup plan for condo. A bad no challenge. A bad challenge the next week. What has given you faith other than "you believe.".

I believed in Jamarcus Russell for almost 2 seasons. The proof is on the field my friend...it's on the field.

Your right the proof is on the field, as in the players have not performed, glad you brought it up. The one constant has been this sorry collection of players, athletes with no real football skills. You draft poor for three years in a row and this is what happens, look at the Rams a team thought to be improving, draft has been terrible the last three years so they have regressed.

As for Gruden, most outside of Oakland think he is a nut job, the Raider franchise will be better to let the past be the past, Gruden proved he could win with a team that was set to make a Super Bowl run. In Oakland his team backed into the playoffs and lost home field advantage and that led to the tuck rule game. Had they finished strong that year we would have had that game in Oakland and let's face it we blow New England out at home that year and win the Super Bowl, that was our year. Another thing and I do like Gruden as a person myself, but why bring back one of the most notorius traders in Raider history?

[TipTopKop]

Patience is the prescription in Oakland - AFC West Blog - ESPN

This is a far more reasoned article than garbage like the Michael Silver piece on Yahoo Sports I mentioned in the other thread.

Refreshing to see someone think of longer term picture than just this season.

[twoutrally]

Gruden won't coach here again. Anyone who thinks he will is living in a fantasy, and this thread is full of fantasy. And anyone who thinks Mark Davis is reading all this and scratching his chin and saying "Hmmmmmmmmmm..." is living that fantasy too. This organization needs real solutions to the very real problems it's been facing for a decade or more. Not a quick fix band-aid to appease the fan base for a season. If you're not in this for the long haul, the Patriots have had remarkably consistent winning seasons as of late.

I think the mention of coaches not wanting to work in Oakland is interesting. Most of us understand the why, and all of us know that's not a factor anymore. Is this really still the case, or is the league holding their collective breath to see how things go here?

And-great read TDraiders! Thanks for taking the trouble to post it. More reason to believe Jon has warm feelings about his time here but won't try to pull an Art Shell 2.0.

Ken

No doubt.Im sure a NFL owner is scouring the message boards looking for an answer and lo and behold he come across the 1000th Gruden thread on this site and decides its time.If a Gruden return was ever going to happen that time has passed.He can have his choice of dozens of prime college jobs and Im sure many pro ones as well.Why would he come back to this mess?Pure fantasy thread

And that's exactly what I intended it to be. Did you see the word miracle....geez relax some of you.

[RavenRaider]

What's that have to do with the price of tea in china?

it has to do with gruden cant coach for ****, other than to people who bring dolls from horror movies to games and think it makes us win like a bud light commercial. Just go back to the tuck rule game when we had the ball with 43 seconds left, tie game, Gannon, Rice, Brown and Garner, and ****ing sat on the ball and never saw it again. **** gruden and his MNF homilies.

if you want to rehire a coach, bring in rex ryan (cus he is done) to be our friggin DC, who like Del Rio and Phillips, has PROVEN success at that position but cant handle the HC position for whatever reason.

[yoda]

I'm pretty sure he knows that.

raiders are need of someone like gruden. at this point, i'd welcome hue jackson back with open arms as long as he brought in a defensive coordinator with some experience. at this point, given how far we've regressed this year, we need someone to rally around. the marketing department would be pretty happy with a guy like gruden on board.

the issue is that mark davis, though an intelligent, well-spoken, and nice guy, doesn't really know what he's doing. he was forced to formulate everything on the fly with al passing away and he made a mistake in hiring reggie. as i stated in my other posts, although ted thompson endorsed reggie, i have to believe the majority of green bay's success was driven by folks like thompson after seeing what reggie has done here after inheriting an 8-8 team and now getting blown out of the water week after week. in his early press conferences, folks mocked his manner of speaking. i don't have a problem with that, but i didn't find much substance to what he was saying.

the second hue was fired, i questioned it. i questioned the hiring of allen, knapp, and tarver. now, it's clear - mackenzie, allen, knapp, and tarver all need to be fired despite the fact that it will entail restarting again. in the case of the hue jackson regime, we did not need to restart and we did unfortunately. hue's ego just need to be checked a little bit by a qualified GM. this time, it's so bad that we need to restart. gruden would be great or anyone else with EXPERIENCE that is able to recruit EXPERIENCED assistants that have a proven record of getting the job done.

[BadRC51]

So he won a Super Bowl and brought Tampa to the playoffs two more times. Here in Oakland he won us three straight division championships and beat us in the super (yes three because bill rode his coattails in 2002) and he is overrated?

[SF_Raider_Fan]

I suggest hiring a guy with previous head heach experience. If not as an NFL head coach, then as a major college head coach.

Dennis Allen never had any experience managing an entire team, or hiring a staff of assistant coaches. This is why the Raider team is currently so upnprepared and lost. And DA is not learning on the job, either.
He must go or the Raiders will continue having 2-4 win seasons.

But if we are going to go after coaches with not a lot of experince we could be looking at being in the same situation we are currently in. I like the guy and think that he has tons of potential, but in the current state of this franchise, why drop potential for other potential? Despite what people think on here DA still has the potential.

[ShadowRage41]

I don't know about Gruden V2. I liked Gruden, in fact I still do, But I am not sure he would be an answer the second time around. I would not be upset if he was the coach, and I think it would benefit Palmer. Because right now the organization as a whole is falling woefully short.

You know as a fan, we don't "have" to be patient. I mean it's like someone asking you to continually eat at a restaurant where the food is horrible. where waiters and waitresses spill food on you, and the cook never get's your order cooked correctly. Hell we pay for this. as patrons we deserve better. I mean the manager coming out and crying about how dumb the help is, does not lessen the anger at all. In fact it would make me angry that the Manager would not man up and say. some of this mess is a result of my inability to manage properly.

I just wish the Raiders would have lured Tony Dungy out of retirement. hired Polian as the G.M. But all that is water under the bridge now. we have two people our G.m who has never been a G.M and our head coach who has never been a head coach. So we are putting a lot of faith in the "belief" based on no empirical proof, that these guy's and their decisions are collectively the answer. And I hope it is. but I am sick as hell of being patient. I want to see some improvement in preparation... I would like to see players that were at least in the right spot, players understanding their assignment. Then I know they are being taught properly. if they are in the right spot just getting beat. then that is on the players. if they are not even in the right spot, and this is collectively as a unit, then it's on coaching as well. You see I came to the conclusion this roster had sub par talent a long time ago. but that does not constitute that All the Raiders players are stupid... and unable to learn where to be. I know the players have to go. So for me>>> I am interested to see if these current coaches are at least able to teach their schemes. if not? some of them need to hit the door right along with the players. Because another 10 years of excuses and scapegoating is not acceptable. JMO

[SF_Raider_Fan]

Good point.
And ticket sales is exactly why Mark Davis should have thought more about the head coach position. It's fine if Davis wanted to hire a GM, because GM is not influencing play on the field nearly as much as a head coach does.
Davis could have hired a GM but taken a year to think things over and get a better feel for setting the foundation of the future. For this year he could have kept Hue Jackson or given Al Saunders the head coach job, just taken the year to see how it plays out, and use next year to make any big changes such as the hiring of a head coach.
As it stands now, I expect many season ticket holders will recognize DA is lost as head coach, that next year will be more blow out non competitive games, and decline to renew their season tickets.

If I was Mark I would be worrying about Season Ticket Holders not renewing their tickets when the team can't even compete in the league. The Past few years they at least competed... now they're just getting blown out. I know of 20 seats now that won't be renewed, but I'm sure there will be more if they continue to just be alright without competing.

[ShadowRage41]

If they fire a head coach after just season then they will only revive the "you don't want to go to the Raiders" sentiment that prevailed around the league for years - among coaches and players.

For better or for worse this I agree with. But I think Allen needs to evaluate his staff as well, and if they seem unable to "teach" then they need to hit the door. Too many players look lost on this team, the fact they are not great football players does not mean they are dumb. Most of the people on this forum could be taught where to be and what to do on a football field "if" they were properly taught. The o line looks absolutely lost. as does the majority of Raider defenders. The buck has to stop somewhere. to me this is their audition. If they cannot teach their system properly. I would hate to think they will still be here to develop whatever grade A talent we may or may not get. You cannot emphasize enough the importance of quality teachers.

Here is the deal.. It's easy for R.M and DA to say> This season is a result of Al Davis's mess and pass the buck. But they should be willing to look at whatever mistakes they have made and remedy them as well. If you intend to hold your players accountable. you better be willing to hold yourself and staff accountable as well. or people will see it for what it is> pretension.

[Sardonicus]

Hmm, tricky one this. Gruden has many a fan and just as many haters. I'm not even sure he would be so keen on a return out west but I'm a Gruden fan, here's why.

Gruden is a players coach, they 'get him', he 'gets them', right now we have a squad of young untapped potential mixed in with a load of under performing, over-payed 'stars' (Seymour,Kelly,Briesel......), I have no doubt Gruden would (at the very least!) light a fire under alot of asses, sheesh, I would rather have a 100% mistake than the lack of hussle effort we get week in week out at present.

Also, Gruden would in know way put up with Knapp, indeed I feel he would utililze the skills of Palmer, Dmac and our other talents (Reece, DHB, Moore, et al) just like he did with Gannon back in the day. OK, I know we have no Timmy B or Rice right now, but Palmer has a very comparable set to Gannon's Raider run, slightly slower yes, but just as accurate & Dmac and Reece could/are stars if used correctly. We lack the line, but who knows what a couple of additions may do. I have no doubt Gruden would love to build a team in his style, Raiders in rebuild affords this opportunity.

Gruden very much has his finger on the pulse with regard to college talent, his QB camp shows demonstrate this, also his MNF gig means he is constantly around the NFL.

I hope Allen becomes a great Raider coach, but I feel he has 3 games to secure his job, for me he must win 2 out of our next 3. Failure to do so would lead to a lot of pressure and, for me maybe the axe. Gruden is a big enough personality to get a bit of time to right this ship, his recent visit to 'honour' Al and the clear healing of the wounds, coupled to the rumours of his desire to return to coaching are no coincidence. Reggie and Gruden for me could be very productive in our present cap situation as players 'want' to play for Gruden and the vets would at least respect him.

Also, this 'he was lucky to get the talent around him' is pure BS. Yeah, he was lucky to have talented players, but just ask Andy Reid and the rest of the struggling NFL teams how hard it is to win if you can't motivate the players. Nothing against Allen but he has not looked like a leader yet. Oh and by the way, Gruden won the Superbowl with his inheritence, Callahan blew his. Rather someone who could win with a good team rather than someone who cant win with anything! The Buc's were crippled by cap issues following there SB, tho I feel McKenzie's trade acumen could control this.

Look, Allen has my best wishes, he really does, hope he kicks ass from here on out, but Gruden just 'fits', if in 3 weeks time Raiders have double digit defeats maybe Gruden should be on speed dial. Maybe, just maybe the Raiders miss, dare say need, a bit of the mystique to return of the Silver and Black, maybe a strong dose of an angry, cussing, raging Chucky is just what they need.........

Thoughts.....

My thoughts are...brilliant post.

I can't believe some people want to discredit what he did here, saying it was all Al Davis and stuff.

While Gruden was here, we had success. He leaves, and we've sucked. If Al Davis assembled the team, why had he been a failure at doing the same since? In fact, before Gruden, it had been almost 2 full decades before we made it to the SB.

And who believes Callahan had anything to do with us getting to the SB? That Gruden-built team was basically on auto pilot; Art Shell could've left it untouched and we would've still made it. Callahan's following year: 4-12. He gets fired and sucked at Nebraska, too. I believe he handed them their worst season record in history, if I'm not mistaken.

It was Gruden, folks. Some of you may not want him back, but don't say he was overrated and did little while here.

[Sardonicus]

I don't know about Gruden V2. I liked Gruden, in fact I still do, But I am not sure he would be an answer the second time around. I would not be upset if he was the coach, and I think it would benefit Palmer. Because right now the organization as a whole is falling woefully short.

You know as a fan, we don't "have" to be patient. I mean it's like someone asking you to continually eat at a restaurant where the food is horrible. where waiters and waitresses spill food on you, and the cook never get's your order cooked correctly. Hell we pay for this. as patrons we deserve better. I mean the manager coming out and crying about how dumb the help is, does not lessen the anger at all. In fact it would make me angry that the Manager would not man up and say. some of this mess is a result of my inability to manage properly.

I just wish the Raiders would have lured Tony Dungy out of retirement. hired Polian as the G.M. But all that is water under the bridge now. we have two people our G.m who has never been a G.M and our head coach who has never been a head coach. So we are putting a lot of faith in the "belief" based on no empirical proof, that these guy's and their decisions are collectively the answer. And I hope it is. but I am sick as hell of being patient. I want to see some improvement in preparation... I would like to see players that were at least in the right spot, players understanding their assignment. Then I know they are being taught properly. if they are in the right spot just getting beat. then that is on the players. if they are not even in the right spot, and this is collectively as a unit, then it's on coaching as well. You see I came to the conclusion this roster had sub par talent a long time ago. but that does not constitute that All the Raiders players are stupid... and unable to learn where to be. I know the players have to go. So for me>>> I am interested to see if these current coaches are at least able to teach their schemes. if not? some of them need to hit the door right along with the players. Because another 10 years of excuses and scapegoating is not acceptable. JMO

Another great post.

I've used that example in the past. The NFL is a business. If you're getting crappy product, you'll just stop paying for it.

Some will tell you to go find another team, that you're not loyal, blah blah. But they're failing to acknowledge the elephant in the room. Without financial support, no team will succeed; it'll be moved or even sold, and people are tired of paying for garbage.

[BVJ]

Before I would throw Dennis Allen under the bus. We have to look at what kind of team that we will field first. This isn't actually a hot job position for great head coaches that are willing to kick the door down and take the positon. Dennis Allen chose the Raiders, so I choose Dennis Allen. He signed a 3 year deal with the Raiders, so I hope both sides will honer the contract. I want to stick with Allen and see how he does with more experience as a head coach and a more talented team for him to deal with. If the Raiders field a much better talented team in the future and still struggle with the DA at the helm, then a possible replacement will be warranted. Part of coaching is evaulating your talent on the field and coaching staff in the off season with your general manager. I'm on the DA bandwagon, so count me in, as long as we find a replacement for offensive coordinator, because I don't have much confidence in his play calling, not so much in his zone blocking scheme, because his previous teams did run the ball well.

I think he signed a 4 year deal?