Clayton nails Oakland call (5-11)

[-Tenebrous-]

I'm really lost for words, that they name the article "Clayton nails Oakland call", and then a thread made on it. How the heck did he "nail" anything? Training camp hasn't even started. If this was written a year from now, sure, they can look back and say he nailed it, but it's really impossible for anybody to predicted anything then proceed to say that they nailed the call before the event has taken place. I understand this is the off-season and we have nothing to talk about, so it explains why this is somewhat thread worthy if you want to call it that. It's in the same category as power rankings the week before the Superbowl.

Yeah, it was kind of confusing - it seems that their was some type of fan poll as to the AFC West (where teams would finish), apparently the fans agreed with Clayton's assessment or something like that.

[-Tenebrous-]

Hue was an a-hole. He might have won us a playoff game or two, but long term he was poison and a disaster. I doubt he ever gets a HC job in the NFL again. I am so sure we are better off without this guy its not funny. If you need to be convinced of it, it wouldn't do any good to try, you just don't see the same guy I see. Before he died it was "Mr Davis", after Hue was fired it was "Al Davis".

As I recall it was "Coach Davis" and I believe that I heard him refer to Davis as Coach Davis even after his death. I am not sure if he did 100% of the time - however, I am not sure if he did 100% of the time before either. Regardless, the Raiders were built on "Just WIN baby!" So, whether he was asshole or whether he was politely consistent is irrelevant - the man helped light a fire under the team and went 8-8 with a severely injured team and with a forgettable D. I am not saying that he was the greatest coach to ever coach the game or that he is going to the hall of fame - I am only arguing that the man deserved at least one more year, he did enough at least for that.

[-Tenebrous-]

I agree about Hue Jackson. I would have liked to have seen him get another year. He dealt with more sh!t than any first year NFL HC that I've ever seen and we still had a chance to win the division in the final week of the season. I also think that should he end up in KC as their offensive coordinator, the Chiefs will suddenly become a very good team. Let's hope that doesn't happen. But it's done and time to move on. A culture change was needed and RM saw that one of the most important ways of changing that was to gut the house. So be it.

BUT, if this offense ends up sucking we need look no further than RM because Al Saunders could have stepped right into the OC position and maintained continuity. Simply put, there wouldn't have been a transition for the offense to make. Just pick up where you left off with a healthy team. And if Dennis Allen is able to instill discipline into the team (as is claimed) then the O would have only gotten better. To be fair to Knapp, his offenses are always damn good at running the ball, no matter who his RBs are; that bodes well for us. IF he can make us one of the best rushing teams in the league then we should be able to playfake the hell out of opposing defenses given the wideouts we have.

And there's no way in hell the defense doesn't get better, regardless of who's playing.

Lol, I agree with most everything, especially that last statement about the D, but Knapp, as I recall, tended to do really well in rushing when he had teams with extremely mobile QB's (Vick and Garcia). He did not do well here in Oakland and I do not recall him doing that well in Seattle, so it seems that it is not settled that Knapp is really good with rushing.

[-Tenebrous-]

Let me help you. First matchup with KC after Campbell went down, We run two flea flickers in a row. Then, in the same game, Raiders 4th and 1 at the Chiefs goal line. Bush could have run to the left and had a good chance of getting through, maybe one defender in that area. Might have been able to stiff arm or truck on through. What does he do? Bush tries to run down the middle, gets stuffed, turnover on downs. Now I don't know if the Bush play was Hue's fault but someone should have called an audible when they saw the Chiefs stacking the box. I mean running up the middle in that situation is what the defense is going to guess.

What are you kidding? Yeah, he was not perfect - wow, what amazing discovery. Focus on the big picture, the main picture; the offense was dead before Jackson came, then, with Jackson, the offense showed great improvement. Again, he lost his starting QB, RB, and WR, took a QB literally off the couch, and still came in the top half of the league on offense. But, go ahead and focus on a few bad calls.

[JUSTWINBABY9111]

And what's with predicting that the offense is going to take a step back? We have crazy good receivers, a quality backup RB in Goodson plus possibly Benson to be signed, and we don't have Kyle Boller on the team. We have a good quarterback, we just need a system that plays to the strengths of our team, instead of trying to force the team to fit into some scheme not designed for us.

I agree, we look like we are in good shape. The roster with DMC healthy for 12-16 games should be one that can score 25+ points a game. The stats at the end of the year should be around that number. If it is not around that number the record will indicate it. We had "a guy" come in as OC, and his stats were above this average in his first year. We ended the season a.500 team. The next year DMC missed many more games and still finished .500. Towards the end of the season Bush showed fatigue, and our lack of RB depth showed. Our lack of depth in other areas showed as well. This team scored 23 a game avg.


With this particular team, ppg seem to go hand in hand with our record. This is because of our weaknesses on the defensive side of the ball. If DMC can remain healthy 12-16 games, with a good OC, we should be very successful. We will probably surpass .500. That's the whole issue for me. If we can not match the output of the past 2 seasons, then it makes me want to dwell on the last 2 seasons. If a guy can do it his first year, then the next guy should have no problem with all the "dysfunction" a thing of the past. Last year, our lack of depth kept us out of the play-offs more than anything. We have added some depth, and maybe will add more with Benson. I'm having doubts because I have researched Knapp a lot, and after doing so, I believe anything can happen now. Like stated earlier, the defense is more predictable than the offense, but we have all the tools on O. It's time to just wait and see.

[NoClapsPlease]

We went 5-11 in 2008 with a total dysfunctional "fire the coach after 4 games, lard a** at QB and turf toed Dmac" type year.
Not to mention Javan Walker and Ashley Lelie starting games at WR and some sorry o-lineman.

I think we've moved passed those days, but maybe im just crazy.

plenty of "good" teams have went 5-11

cant use stuff like that as a measuring stick

[Jiu Jitsu Jon]

What are you kidding? Yeah, he was not perfect - wow, what amazing discovery. Focus on the big picture, the main picture; the offense was dead before Jackson came, then, with Jackson, the offense showed great improvement. Again, he lost his starting QB, RB, and WR, took a QB literally off the couch, and still came in the top half of the league on offense. But, go ahead and focus on a few bad calls.

The guy said he couldn't think of any specific bad calls. I was citing some for precedent. It was Carson Palmer that got us to an 8-8 season, not because Hue Jackson was some master tactiction, and you can thank the defense for not winning the division.

[dezcruel]

Last year, I thought the writing was on the wall once Al passed. I am of the opinion that, given the circumstances at the time, that regardless of who we brought in at GM, Hue would be gone. I think Hue's whole act, behavior and his Al Haig moment post A.D. were a result of him seeing that very same writing. Maybe there are a few GM's that would have kept him on, but I just expected that any GM would want to start fresh with his own people, considering how "un-orthodoxed" our franchise had been ran previously. I also think Hue's ego would have led to conflict with anyone we hired, and in his own mind, I think that he would have believed that he somehow had more authority than the GM and was "in" with the Davis family.I think the crying on the sidelines, for the most part was insincere and was geared toward that very thing, cementing himself into the organization and into the hearts of the fans and ownership. Cynical maybe, but I think Mark Davis and Reggie saw it as well, thus, no more Hue.

[-Tenebrous-]

The guy said he couldn't think of any specific bad calls. I was citing some for precedent. It was Carson Palmer that got us to an 8-8 season, not because Hue Jackson was some master tactiction, and you can thank the defense for not winning the division.

Sorry, getting tired and trigger happy it seems. In regards to Palmer v. Jackson; Jackson started improving the Raider offense before he picked up Palmer (even when he was an OC) so, Jackson seemed to do his part. Again, I am not stating that Jackson was "some master tactiction," only that he deserved another year.

[Daggerman]

I have a problem with Clayton even making predictions in the first place. First, he made all of them without respect to scheduling and logistics. Second, he made all of them in June, when pre-camp rosters resemble regular season rosters about as much as a list of 53 pornstars does. Last season, the division had 3 8-win teams and a 7-win team. Clayton's predictions are: 10-6, 9-7, 7-9, 5-11. If we actually just listed his reasoning for these selections, we'd see that it's pretty absurd stuff:

1. With Denver, he's saying "Peyton Manning will be healthy, and a team with a healthy Peyton Manning is basically a lock to win at least 10 games. I don't know nearly enough about football to assess Denver's roster in any meaningful way, so I'll play it safe and say 10-6."

2. For San Diego it's "They went 8-8 last year, but Philip Rivers will probably be a little better this year, but I can't put the Chargers ahead of the Broncos because the company line is to say the addition of Manning makes the Broncos the best team in the division even though they have the 3rd or 4th best roster in the division."

3. His reasoning for the Chiefs is..."Even though they were the most injury-stricken team in the league last season--well, aside from St. Louis--and their best and fourth-best offensive players and either best or second-best defensive player missed basically the whole season, they put up a reasonably respectable 7-9 record, but Matt Cassel is still the quarterback, Bowe is potentially holding out, and they lost Brandon Carr. There are too many important things to consider, and I don't feel like being insightful, so I'll just give them 7-9 again."

4. Oakland: "Well, I need to give somebody a bad record, so why don't we make it the Raiders...I know Routt and Wimbley weren't particularly useful in a lot of games last season, but they started, and now they're gone, so that counts against Oakland. They didn't have a first round pick, so they don't have any highly paid rookies who may or may not be effective this year. Hue Jackson turned things around and had them on the right track, and now they are starting over with a new coach, so clearly they have to suck this year no matter how good the new staff may be. 5-11 it is."

Those are literally the only things Clayton considered. How's that for shoddy analysis? As a self-professed "professor," he should be ashamed of himself. I'm not saying his predictions are wrong; I'm just saying his predictions are meaningless. In fact, all football predictions are meaningless. Factors that can't be preemptively quantified--injuries, weather, personnel changes, team chemistry and changes thereof, suspensions, mid-week kickoff time changes, rule changes and referees (WARNING: TANGENT- not saying referees are biased in the sense that they are consciously against particular teams (though some might be--I won't go there), but rather they are biased in the sense that each individual official is predisposed towards making particular calls based on what he sees on the field. And it would seem that these variations have legitimate implications as they pertain to variations in individual teams' playing styles and tendencies--TANGENT OVER) are things that simply can't be accounted for, and even if such factors could be fairly well accounted for on their own, how would we weight them? If we could factor them in AND weight them, we'd finally be able to say we are predicting something--we have expected results and can now test them. But, as it were, at best, before the season, all we can do is assess a roster and ask, "is this roster good enough to win X games (or the X Games)," but the answer to that question is not a prediction; it's merely a roughly empirical claim based on comparisons to previous rosters and their results. What determines whether an answer is a good one depends on the depth of analysis, but this is as far from a prediction as simply knowing what a team's record is.

[-Tenebrous-]

Last year, I thought the writing was on the wall once Al passed. I am of the opinion that, given the circumstances at the time, that regardless of who we brought in at GM, Hue would be gone. I think Hue's whole act, behavior and his Al Haig moment post A.D. were a result of him seeing that very same writing. Maybe there are a few GM's that would have kept him on, but I just expected that any GM would want to start fresh with his own people, considering how "un-orthodoxed" our franchise had been ran previously. I also think Hue's ego would have led to conflict with anyone we hired, and in his own mind, I think that he would have believed that he somehow had more authority than the GM and was "in" with the Davis family.I think the crying on the sidelines, for the most part was insincere and was geared toward that very thing, cementing himself into the organization and into the hearts of the fans and ownership. Cynical maybe, but I think Mark Davis and Reggie saw it as well, thus, no more Hue.

While I agree that most GM's pick their coach when they come to a team, this situation was different; the GM basically died. So, just saying that a GM would hire their own coach does not seem to be enough reason. Consider if the the Niners' lost their GM when Walsh was starting out. Again, I am NOT stating that Jackson is anywhere near Walsh - this just a comparison of situations. A new GM steps in and immediately fires Bill Walsh, because that is what GM's normally do - that probably would have not worked out as well for the Niners. Sometimes, one needs to assess the situation and at least give some people a chance - Jackson, in my, earned at least one more year after last season.

[Jiu Jitsu Jon]

Sorry, getting tired and trigger happy it seems. In regards to Palmer v. Jackson; Jackson started improving the Raider offense before he picked up Palmer (even when he was an OC) so, Jackson seemed to do his part. Again, I am not stating that Jackson was "some master tactiction," only that he deserved another year.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Hue Jackson seemed slimy to me for some reason. And then there was the fact that we traded two high picks to the Bengals and *Hey, look at that!* There's Hue Jackson on the Bengals staff once again. I remember making a thread last season where I said Hue Jackson's talk was cheap, and unless he did indeed fix the problems it was just more empty rhetoric. I stand behind my previous assessment.

[-Tenebrous-]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Hue Jackson seemed slimy to me for some reason. And then there was the fact that we traded two high picks to the Bengals and *Hey, look at that!* There's Hue Jackson on the Bengals staff once again. I remember making a thread last season where I said Hue Jackson's talk was cheap, and unless he did indeed fix the problems it was just more empty rhetoric. I stand behind my previous assessment.

Yeah, it seems so - but, I am not disagreeing with you on whether or not he is "slimy," because I was not happy more than a few things he said/did, however, when it comes to Raider football, I am in the Just Win Baby column. So, slime or no slime, what he did with the team with all those injures (and the DC), earned him at least one more year in my view.

[Da Swami]

well if we go 5-11 (like i HONESTLY expect) its all we are going to hear, bc quite frankly, it will be the truth

our personnel was hand picked for a vertical offense

square peg in a round hole (thats smaller in diameter).

the team will change over time

Reggie is just planting seeds

us having a successful season in 2012 is a pipe dream

This is the biggest load of crap you have spewed so far and it shows you have no clue as to what diffeences there are in the offenses. Just exactly what is it that is so difficult for our players to adjust to?

Routes?

Are you saying pro athletes cant run routes from the WCO?

What does it mean when you say they fit the vertical offense?

No agility to make cuts or break off routes?

They arent smart enough to run anything other than deep route?

WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN?

Please elaborate and educate us dummies who don't understand the complex nature of what we are doing and why players are WCO types or Vertical offense types. Tell me why they are so type cast.

What a complete load of crap!

I am quite certain you have never put on pads.

Please go in to detail on why they are unable to make such minor adjustments in their game.

Comments like these show me you are full of **** about any credentials you have about football.

[Da Swami]

I dont hate Hue. I'm just tired of those that keep whining about him not being here anymore. He did a good job with the offense considering where it was before he got here. But he also left a lot to be desired both as a playcaller and as an HC. Yea he is still young as far as experience goes and he can learn and get better but he absolutely deserved to get fired after his end of the year press conferences. He knew we were getting a GM and still went in front of the media and said he is going to have more power next season. He wrote his own ticket out the door. Blame RM or MD all you want but Hue fired himself before RM was even fired because of what he said publicly.

Before he held those press conferences I was in favor of Hue keeping his job. I was never a big fan of his but I felt he deserved the chance to develop as an HC. But as soon as he opened his mouth at the end of the season I wanted him gone Al or no Al.

Money Post!

I wanted him to stay until I saw how he acted at the end of the season.

He melted down and that's not what I want in a Raider coach.