Jaws QB Countdown Palmer ranked

[Rainman56]

Just my opinion as far as the co ordinators debate:I believe some OC and DC have freedom to basically install and run their system while others have more input from the HC...Depends on the situation,I,m sure DA will have more of his imprints on the Defence than the offense as thats his back ground...I think Martz did have pretty much free rein of the O in St Louis with Vermeil overseeing things.If the OC or DC isn,t producing then I think the HC steps in as his @ss is also on the line.Generally whatever side of the ball the HC,s background is he,ll probally hire the Co ordinator that runs a similar system as his own be it offense or defense.I could be way off but thats my .02...Good debate so far guys,no BS just a good discussion

[SLVR&BLK]

Nothing wrong with analyzing Knapps' career and looking back on what he did.
But whatever he did years ago with the 49ers either good or bad will have no effect on what the Raiders do on the field in 2012, this is a new opportunity with new players and working for a new GM and head coach.


Consider Mike Shanahan, he once coached back to back Superbowl victorys, but his last 5 NFL seasons as a head coach he has an overall losing record and no playoff teams.

And then Mike McCarthy, he once was OC for a terrible 49er team that had one of the leagues worsts offenses, now he's considered one of the top offensive minds in the game and arguably the best head coach in the league.

Looking into the past is no guarantee to what the future will hold, to many variables.

So if Knapp can mesh with our skill and the offense can build a chemistry with each other we will be fine, whats in the past is in the past, this upcoming season will be a new start and the launch of the Raiders future.

[Okie]

Ok, Okie. Let me get this straight. You are saying there is no difference between Al Davis' Raiders and how nearly every other team has operated the past couple decades? Is that not the gauntlet you've laid down before us?

Thats hardly what im saying at all. What im saying is, things and people have changed but in the end, the organization still funnels around one guy.

1. Reggie hired a first time head coach with little experience. Had this been Al, it would have been him hiring a yes man who doesnt have the experience to stand up to thim.
2. Reggie hired only coaches who will run or fit the schemes and philosophies HE wants run. Once again, isnt this the same thing we criticized AL for?
3. Reggies has stated it himself, he gets input from several sources but in the end its HIS decision on personnel? Other than those "sources" having official Raider titles, whats the difference?
4. Reggie is taking a phase that worked well, top of the league and starting from scratch just so it can be done his way? Once again, isnt this one of our biggest faults with Al.

My point is, sure, we have new faces around the office with new titles, new job descriptions and all of the bells and whistles of a modern franchise. In the end though, that modern style still revolves around the decisions of one guy. I love the modern system, i like the way everything branches out but in the end it still going to boil down to Reggies decision on almost every aspect of this team. That is no different than everything revolving around Al with one exception, if after 4 or5 years we dont have success, Mark will fire Reggie, something that we never had with Al.

[Da Swami]

Nothing wrong with analyzing Knapps' career and looking back on what he did.
But whatever he did years ago with the 49ers either good or bad will have no effect on what the Raiders do on the field in 2012, this is a new opportunity with new players and working for a new GM and head coach.


Consider Mike Shanahan, he once coached back to back Superbowl victorys, but his last 5 NFL seasons as a head coach he has an overall losing record and no playoff teams.

And then Mike McCarthy, he once was OC for a terrible 49er team that had one of the leagues worsts offenses, now he's considered one of the top offensive minds in the game and arguably the best head coach in the league.

Looking into the past is no guarantee to what the future will hold, to many variables.

So if Knapp can mesh with our skill and the offense can build a chemistry with each other we will be fine, whats in the past is in the past, this upcoming season will be a new start and the launch of the Raiders future.

In fact, the Rat's ENTIRE record since Elway retired is dismal.

That was 1998.

HOF?

No way!

Great point because there was a time when he was considered a HOF caliber coach.

A Coach's success, or lack of, is dependent on a lot of variables that can change.

[cheapshotartist]

Thats hardly what im saying at all. What im saying is, things and people have changed but in the end, the organization still funnels around one guy.

1. Reggie hired a first time head coach with little experience. Had this been Al, it would have been him hiring a yes man who doesnt have the experience to stand up to thim.
2. Reggie hired only coaches who will run or fit the schemes and philosophies HE wants run. Once again, isnt this the same thing we criticized AL for?
3. Reggies has stated it himself, he gets input from several sources but in the end its HIS decision on personnel? Other than those "sources" having official Raider titles, whats the difference?
4. Reggie is taking a phase that worked well, top of the league and starting from scratch just so it can be done his way? Once again, isnt this one of our biggest faults with Al.

My point is, sure, we have new faces around the office with new titles, new job descriptions and all of the bells and whistles of a modern franchise. In the end though, that modern style still revolves around the decisions of one guy. I love the modern system, i like the way everything branches out but in the end it still going to boil down to Reggies decision on almost every aspect of this team. That is no different than everything revolving around Al with one exception, if after 4 or5 years we dont have success, Mark will fire Reggie, something that we never had with Al.

One big difference Okie, Reggie is Reggie and Al (RIP) is Al (RIP). We are talking Apples and Oranges here. You can't compare the two. Their like water and oil.

[regret]

One big difference Okie, Reggie is Reggie and Al (RIP) is Al (RIP). We are talking Apples and Oranges here. You can't compare the two. Their like water and oil.

Not to mention Reggie answers to Mark and Al answered to no one, so of course Reggie is installing "his people". He can be fired at any time so he wants to win the way he knows how. Not how some other guy did it before he came here. And that's fine. Now I was initially uncomfortable with just firing everyone but I can see why he did it: you don't want to sink or swim based off the decisions of someone else if you can possibly avoid it.

It's kind of hysterical seeing someone try to gloss over the differences here, though. Reggie isn't going to be calling up DA after a loss to tell him to run his defense, or to throw the ball more to DHB or get his boy Pryor some reps. Reggie hired the head coach to make those decisions and until proven otherwise I can't see him undermining the authority of his coaches like Al did.

[JoeKiev]

Not to mention Reggie answers to Mark and Al answered to no one, so of course Reggie is installing "his people". He can be fired at any time so he wants to win the way he knows how. Not how some other guy did it before he came here. And that's fine. Now I was initially uncomfortable with just firing everyone but I can see why he did it: you don't want to sink or swim based off the decisions of someone else if you can possibly avoid it.

It's kind of hysterical seeing someone try to gloss over the differences here, though. Reggie isn't going to be calling up DA after a loss to tell him to run his defense, or to throw the ball more to DHB or get his boy Pryor some reps. Reggie hired the head coach to make those decisions and until proven otherwise I can't see him undermining the authority of his coaches like Al did.

Yeah, it is getting pretty pathetic for some of these guys. Okie's predictions/insights have been way off, especially when we talk abou the realities of Al Davis. Now, he is trying once again to take a grain of truth (Al ran the show), and paint RM with the same brush stroke without pointing out the obvious differences. Blah blah blah, narrow windows and emotionally driven "I can't be wrong at any cost" mentalities. We've seen it before.....we've seen it before....

[cheapshotartist]

Not to mention Reggie answers to Mark and Al answered to no one, so of course Reggie is installing "his people". He can be fired at any time so he wants to win the way he knows how. Not how some other guy did it before he came here. And that's fine. Now I was initially uncomfortable with just firing everyone but I can see why he did it: you don't want to sink or swim based off the decisions of someone else if you can possibly avoid it.

It's kind of hysterical seeing someone try to gloss over the differences here, though. Reggie isn't going to be calling up DA after a loss to tell him to run his defense, or to throw the ball more to DHB or get his boy Pryor some reps. Reggie hired the head coach to make those decisions and until proven otherwise I can't see him undermining the authority of his coaches like Al did.

Word, we have finally caught up with the rest of the NFL, I'm not saying we are playoff bound but we can at least compete with the rest of the league. What we were doing did not work and it was never going to work because the NFL has changed over the years and we did not. We now have a clean slate and it's time to set the foundation for the future.

[HurrikaneSensei]

Thats hardly what im saying at all. What im saying is, things and people have changed but in the end, the organization still funnels around one guy.

1. Reggie hired a first time head coach with little experience. Had this been Al, it would have been him hiring a yes man who doesnt have the experience to stand up to thim.
2. Reggie hired only coaches who will run or fit the schemes and philosophies HE wants run. Once again, isnt this the same thing we criticized AL for?
3. Reggies has stated it himself, he gets input from several sources but in the end its HIS decision on personnel? Other than those "sources" having official Raider titles, whats the difference?
4. Reggie is taking a phase that worked well, top of the league and starting from scratch just so it can be done his way? Once again, isnt this one of our biggest faults with Al.

My point is, sure, we have new faces around the office with new titles, new job descriptions and all of the bells and whistles of a modern franchise. In the end though, that modern style still revolves around the decisions of one guy. I love the modern system, i like the way everything branches out but in the end it still going to boil down to Reggies decision on almost every aspect of this team. That is no different than everything revolving around Al with one exception, if after 4 or5 years we dont have success, Mark will fire Reggie, something that we never had with Al.

Reggie has stated multiple times he and Dennis will work together in the decison making process. Yes he will have the final say but all GM's do as far as personnel. And if this organization "funnels around one guy" I'm pretty sure that guy would be Mark Davis. Mark can't be fired...Reggie can.

[coogi]

by okies logic i can start a soda company out of my apartment and compete and against coke and pepsi...nevermind that they are major corporations with structure from head to toe...its just me vs. the ceo right??im going to be making all the decisions he does...

[Okie]

One big difference Okie, Reggie is Reggie and Al (RIP) is Al (RIP). We are talking Apples and Oranges here. You can't compare the two. Their like water and oil.

Thats not the point at all. For years I have taken on this debate and for years these same posters have claimed their problem is with the processes and decisions, not the guy making them. My biggest point then was that regardless of a GM or not, everything still funnels through one man. This is why when these debates went on my argument was that I didn't have a problem with the way our organization ran except that our GM didn't answer to anyone.

I think Reggie is a lot more like Al then any of you let on. That is a big reason Reggie's name kept popping up before Al was gone as someone he was considering.

[Okie]

I agree with most of what you said. The only thing I disagree with is that if we are losing and you don't think Reggie's not going to call up DA and give him his opinion the we are delusional.

None of us are privy to the inside workings of NFL teams or their inhouse conversations. Out of curiosity, have you seen one season of Hard Knocks where GMs and even owners weren't part of the personnel or strategy meetings? It is common for those people to state their opinions on everything. If the teams win it doesn't matter but if they are losing you can bet the GMs or owners are more vocal.

Like I said, I'm not going to defend Al's decisions or input, I'm just saying its not as uncommon in a modern franchise as we act like it is

Not to mention Reggie answers to Mark and Al answered to no one, so of course Reggie is installing "his people". He can be fired at any time so he wants to win the way he knows how. Not how some other guy did it before he came here. And that's fine. Now I was initially uncomfortable with just firing everyone but I can see why he did it: you don't want to sink or swim based off the decisions of someone else if you can possibly avoid it.

It's kind of hysterical seeing someone try to gloss over the differences here, though. Reggie isn't going to be calling up DA after a loss to tell him to run his defense, or to throw the ball more to DHB or get his boy Pryor some reps. Reggie hired the head coach to make those decisions and until proven otherwise I can't see him undermining the authority of his coaches like Al did.

[Okie]

by okies logic i can start a soda company out of my apartment and compete and against coke and pepsi...nevermind that they are major corporations with structure from head to toe...its just me vs. the ceo right??im going to be making all the decisions he does...

Apparently you can because for two straight seasons this team was on the verge of the playoffs. It can be factually and statistically proven that getting away from Al's way is exactly what cost us the playoffs both years more than any other reason.

[Okie]

Yeah, it is getting pretty pathetic for some of these guys. Okie's predictions/insights have been way off, especially when we talk abou the realities of Al Davis. Now, he is trying once again to take a grain of truth (Al ran the show), and paint RM with the same brush stroke without pointing out the obvious differences. Blah blah blah, narrow windows and emotionally driven "I can't be wrong at any cost" mentalities. We've seen it before.....we've seen it before....

You cAnt make it 2 days without taking some pathetic jab at me in an attempt to instigate. It's funny how you always bring up how my insights are off or I'm consistently wrong yet:

It was I who stated our problems were bigger than Russell while you all jumped on the Cable wagon that this was a playoff team without him? 3 years later we still haven't exceeded .500.

It was I who stated Campbell was better for this team than Gradkowski. The Raiders won more than 60% of their games with JC and how many with Bruce?

It was I who stated this team couldn't win with a pass first offense. We have won more than 70% of our games leaning in the run, whats our record with 4 different quarterbacks leaning on the pass, isn't it like 20% if I remember correctly.

Wasn't it I who stated the day we signed him that Palmer will add production but his turnovers will be more than our defense can overcome?

Wasn't it I who argued our defense and inconsistent receivers were one of the biggest causes for our struggles while you all blamed the QB. Isn't it you guys now claiming those are the problems?

Yes Joe, my insight has been so far off base.

Lol, ffs

[NoClapsPlease]

You cAnt make it 2 days without taking some pathetic jab at me in an attempt to instigate. It's funny how you always bring up how my insights are off or I'm consistently wrong yet:

It was I who stated our problems were bigger than Russell while you all jumped on the Cable wagon that this was a playoff team without him? 3 years later we still haven't exceeded .500.

It was I who stated Campbell was better for this team than Gradkowski. The Raiders won more than 60% of their games with JC and how many with Bruce?

It was I who stated this team couldn't win with a pass first offense. We have won more than 70% of our games leaning in the run, whats our record with 4 different quarterbacks leaning on the pass, isn't it like 20% if I remember correctly.

Wasn't it I who stated the day we signed him that Palmer will add production but his turnovers will be more than our defense can overcome?

Wasn't it I who argued our defense and inconsistent receivers were one of the biggest causes for our struggles while you all blamed the QB. Isn't it you guys now claiming those are the problems?

Yes Joe, my insight has been so far off base.

Lol, ffs

you cant reason with people with irrational views

i suggest you customize yours RF.net experience and put the 3 headed monster on ignore.