Is Camp Soft to Blame??

**kultan** · 08-31-2010, 06:54 AM

I've heard people who've followed the Raiders say that from Gruden until Cable one thing has remained the same. The lack of hitting and physical play in training camp. Al Davis doesn't believe in losing his players to injuries before the season starts hence the lack of contact found on other teams. I remember in Gallery's rookie season his coach wanted to give him more reps and Al said No, cut it out, that's enough.

I'm all for protecting veterans etc. but could this be an attributing factor to our line play and our lack of tackling. I mean in the games we don't wrap up. At times in the trenches we are always on our heels on both sides of the ball. I think that a more physical camp may alleviate some of these troubles.

Is it a lack of talent, schemes, coaching or are we just not hitting enough in camp?
your thoughts.

**VEfreak** · 08-31-2010, 06:57 AM

Yeah, Art Shell's hard knock camps with the nut cracker and pit drills worked out so great for us.

**kultan** · 08-31-2010, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by VEfreak

Yeah, Art Shell's hard knock camps with the nut cracker and pit drills worked out so great for us.

I remember how Art came in and tried to change the culture. His playbook being written on stone tablets didn't build confidence however. When players are saying they havent run plays like this since junior varsity it's a problem.

Shell in my recollection held players responsible for there mistakes etc. but a couple of drills is not the same as changing the philosophy of an organization.

"– Camp Cable was not much different than Camp Kiffin, Camp Shell, Camp Callahan, Camp Gruden or any other camp in terms of violence at the line of scrimmage.

There was a live session of a dozen or so plays, and a goal line sequence, but as long as Al Davis owns the Raiders don’t expect the head coach to risk losing talent before a regular season game is played."

What we learned from training camp - Inside the Oakland Raiders - A look inside the world of the highly classified Oakland Raiders from the writers of Bay Area News Group

**RaiderInNY** · 08-31-2010, 07:12 AM

It's an easy thing to say...

When there is a tough camp, some will complain that the grind and wear and tear effected the players. And if they get hurt and don't make it through, if there's a mutiny et., then people give angles on how it should have been softened.

If there's a soft camp, then we get stuff like; "this is why there are so many injuries and the team is not ready to hit..." yada, yada, yada.

It's a double edge sword, you'll have naysayers and lobbyist for either side.

There is no one 'right' way to run camp. Teams with soft camps have gone on to win SB. Teams with military like conditions have won SB.

It's like styles, schemes and team personalities in terms of play; there is no one way to win.

**cheapshotartist** · 08-31-2010, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by VEfreak

Yeah, Art Shell's hard knock camps with the nut cracker and pit drills worked out so great for us.

And what happened after those great TC's with Norv, Kiffin and Cable? Winning seasons right?

**losdogdagreat** · 08-31-2010, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by kultan

I've heard people who've followed the Raiders say that from Gruden until Cable one thing has remained the same. The lack of hitting and physical play in training camp. Al Davis doesn't believe in losing his players to injuries before the season starts hence the lack of contact found on other teams. I remember in Gallery's rookie season his coach wanted to give him more reps and Al said No, cut it out, that's enough.

I'm all for protecting veterans etc. but could this be an attributing factor to our line play and our lack of tackling. I mean in the games we don't wrap up. At times in the trenches we are always on our heels on both sides of the ball. I think that a more physical camp may alleviate some of these troubles.

Is it a lack of talent, schemes, coaching or are we just not hitting enough in camp?
your thoughts.

I honestly don't think we have had that much trouble. We gave up two sacks against a stout defense, and while we did give up some big runs this game, we have looked good on MOST plays this preseason. I know that we are not where we need to be completely but a soft camp means nothing IMHO. I think on the defensive side, as many have said already, the scheme is everything, and also, huff has been responsible to two of the HUGE runs this preseason that has made us look bad against the run. If he makes the tackle on Forte and Gore, we look a lot better IMO. Now, offensively I am not sure. There have been times where the oline has really looked in synch and the QB has had time, and then there are times we it breaks down. I can say that we have looked much better with the addition of Valdheer alone. So, I don't think our "soft" camp has contributed to bad play, we just play bad at times, lol.

**HITMAN** · 08-31-2010, 07:51 AM

They've lost one preseason game by a whopping 4 points... relax folks let's wait until the end of September before starting to panic...

**guydon** · 08-31-2010, 08:05 AM

I still like TC the way it was run. It may actually be ahead of it's time if the NFL moves to an 18 game season I think most camps will be that way. Next, everyone seemed to tackle ok with the exception of... you guessed it, Mike Huff. When he tried to shoulder chuck the running back instead of wrapping up it had little to do with TC and more to do with Huff trying to be cute. I re-watched the game last night and we are a catch here or there, or getting off the field on a 3rd down away from having an impressive game. When I say these things I don't mean like in the past when we looked like keystone cops out there, the plays look real nice on O and D, it's just little tiny things holding the team back from being explosive on both sides. For the first time in a long time I would say "very fixable" things.

**R8ERMAC** · 08-31-2010, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by hitman

they've lost one preseason game by a whopping 4 points... Relax folks let's wait until the end of september before starting to panic...

exactly!

**jtagg7754** · 08-31-2010, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by HITMAN

They've lost one preseason game by a whopping 4 points... relax folks let's wait until the end of September before starting to panic...

My god, thank you.

**paul0660** · 08-31-2010, 08:56 AM

we are a catch here or there, or getting off the field on a 3rd down away from having an impressive game.

I agree BUT there were incredible lapses which destroyed continuity and, I think, make a bigger difference than the above. If Murphy doesn't score before the half, we were headed for disaster. This team is fully capable of making fantastic single plays, and of mailing in an entire quarter when their dobber is down. We need consistency, and should expect those catches and third down conversions.

**kultan** · 08-31-2010, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by HITMAN

They've lost one preseason game by a whopping 4 points... relax folks let's wait until the end of September before starting to panic...

This is not a sky is falling thread by any means. I just wanted thoughts on how the Training camp was run and if there was any carry over to the games both now and in the past.

Hey the Ravens gave up a TON of yardage in the air during the preseason recently so it's not like we are alone in trying to tighten things up.

The argument about Huff making the tackle is a toss up for me. I mean really the two runs are still HUGE yardage IF he makes the tackle anyway. It's not like it was an 8 yard gain that went for 40 more like a 21yd run play which we can't give up and be competitive on a regular basis.

I do agree that no matter what you do someone will complain about it though. Too soft camp ran Bilik out of Baltimore, to hard almost got Coughlin run out of NY and both were successful coaches.

I guess it's easy to question things when it seems nothing is working. I guess in my mind I wonder what's to blame, scheme, preparation, or personell. Hopefully it's not D (all of the above)!!

**MikeOxlong** · 08-31-2010, 09:14 AM

Gruden ran a soft camp? We had a lot of success under him.

**HITMAN** · 08-31-2010, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by kultan

This is not a sky is falling thread by any means. I just wanted thoughts on how the Training camp was run and if there was any carry over to the games both now and in the past.

Hey the Ravens gave up a TON of yardage in the air during the preseason recently so it's not like we are alone in trying to tighten things up.

The argument about Huff making the tackle is a toss up for me. I mean really the two runs are still HUGE yardage IF he makes the tackle anyway. It's not like it was an 8 yard gain that went for 40 more like a 21yd run play which we can't give up and be competitive on a regular basis.

I do agree that no matter what you do someone will complain about it though. Too soft camp ran Bilik out of Baltimore, to hard almost got Coughlin run out of NY and both were successful coaches.

I guess it's easy to question things when it seems nothing is working. I guess in my mind I wonder what's to blame, scheme, preparation, or personell. Hopefully it's not D (all of the above)!!

The problems with the Raiders still stem from the fact they don't have a great deal of talent and depth at critical positions such as the OL, and WR.

Huff is a great athlete, but an average football player the same goes for so many others. Once they have better first line talent and quality depth we won't see as many problems.

**ds20902** · 08-31-2010, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by HITMAN

They've lost one preseason game by a whopping 4 points... relax folks let's wait until the end of September before starting to panic...

What's this...a hint of optimism from the Hitman?! LOL...well I'm optimistic too but a little worried also. Once again, poor tackling and Oline blocking look like they may be our achilles heel this season. I'm hoping to see improvement week to week though.