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Thread: Message to Al Billboard

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen_Man View Post
    I understand you support the billboard partly because that other site help promote it...

    There is nothing postive that come from this hitting the national, Raider hating media, nothing. I don't think you truely understand the implications.

    Prior to this year we sold out six out of eight home games since 2006. However, based on the current economical times, nobody is going to go out and see this team. People are living from paycheck to paycheck, that is why we have only manage to sell out two games this year, not the ****ting product.

    Yeah, Davis has sold part of the team-- that is based on the fact that the Raiders actually want to build a stadium in its currently location. And with that, they need investors. These people buying part of the Raiders are just investors, don't read too much into this.

    So what if JR is one of the biggest bust--you are telling me something that I already knew.

    Check it, sports goes in cycles. Try to become a Bengal fan during the 90s and the first half of this century. Everybody goes through tough, dark times, everybody, not just the Raiders. 16-0 or 0-16, i'm there every sunday-- i am not a fairweather guy who is going to jump on this team back when it is good, yet flock the ship when it sucks.

    You are likely to get a better response through other avenues; or, if you want to be proactive, set up a walkout.
    Economy has a huge part of it but your crazy if you think the product has nothing to do with it.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raider_Demon View Post
    Who gives anyone the right to tell someone else how to protest and not to protest. Unless its hurting someone Physicaly they should really just say they like it or they dont. But a opinion on how to correctly protest is just a little bit on the arrogant side of things. Co Sign Raider Demon
    This is the hypocrisy of the idea behind the billboard. It suggests Al Davis to step down, because they do not believe he is making the right decisions for the team. They want to move forward with someone else making the decisions. It's a public voice of criticism which they have the right to make.

    Yet in this thread, when criticism is thrown their way for putting it up, and I'll reiterate that the protest in which you are referring is a public one on a freaking billboard on the side of a highway for all to see, and getting national exposure, they get defensive and disregard the opinions of their opposition. Throughout this thread I have been told many times that I have no business in saying who I think is a real fan or not. That I'm blindly loyal to Davis. That I am arrogant. Well if that's not the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is. You have the audacity to tell a man to step down, that he is no longer able to do the job, to criticize him and anyone that supports him. Yet when criticism falls in your lap, you get defensive and tell us what opinions we can or cannot have.

    We have a poster here that donated to the billboard. He has Mike Mitchell in his signature, it says fear is coming. It has been their going back before training camp. Is that blind optimism that he has that this player may become great? The same blind optimism I have that the Raiders will improve with Davis still as GM? Why are JaMarcus Russell supporters treated like fools? Does Russell not wear a Raiders jersey on Sundays? As a Raiders fan I would expect nothing less than fans rooting for him and wanting him to succeed. Whether they feel he's a good player or not. I've seen a post where someone actually rooted for him to fail.

    This billboard takes things to a different level. You put yourselves out there, with your so called 25,000 signatures, and will have to understand that you will face criticism from us who may not like it. If you can give it, then you should be able to take it.

    For all you nerds out there:
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  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen_Man View Post
    I understand you support the billboard partly because that other site help promote it...

    There is nothing postive that come from this hitting the national, Raider hating media, nothing. I don't think you truely understand the implications.

    Prior to this year we sold out six out of eight home games since 2006. However, based on the current economical times, nobody is going to go out and see this team. People are living from paycheck to paycheck, that is why we have only manage to sell out two games this year, not the ****ting product.

    Yeah, Davis has sold part of the team-- that is based on the fact that the Raiders actually want to build a stadium in its currently location. And with that, they need investors. These people buying part of the Raiders are just investors, don't read too much into this.

    So what if JR is one of the biggest bust--you are telling me something that I already knew.

    Check it, sports goes in cycles. Try to become a Bengal fan during the 90s and the first half of this century. Everybody goes through tough, dark times, everybody, not just the Raiders. 16-0 or 0-16, i'm there every sunday-- i am not a fairweather guy who is going to jump on this team back when it is good, yet flock the ship when it sucks.

    You are likely to get a better response through other avenues; or, if you want to be proactive, set up a walkout.
    a walkout is not out of the question...and I did walkout on the KC game and gave the money for the ticket to the billboard project....

    you make good points...and we will see who is right..I think if anything this will actually reform the national media's opinion of us being blindly loyal lemmings that are irrational and always think we are 1 player away....likeJim rome says "raider fan". Well that's what the national media actually thinks about us..nowhere have we been ever described as crybabies. I've heard insanely loyal, delusional and crazy. we have always been described the same as our owner....some of us want to break that and say that we think Al needs some help too.

    Before you challenge the Raider Fans to sell out the Colisseum or say the locals don't support the team Please Read Raider187's extremely informative post: http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakl...ance-woes.html

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSpartan View Post
    I amazed by how much those that disagree care about what other people think about us.

    I also think it's comical to call anyone still a fan of this team after the last 7 years a "band wagon" fan.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaiderInNY View Post
    Well said!

    Look, erieraidaz took up this effort and really showed some determination getting this done - making his feelings, and that of a loyal fan base be known.

    I know he tried to catapult his cause by posting links here and asking for support on this very site. The site owner here did not believe that his forum should not be used for the jump-off or launching pad for his efforts. And that's up to BK; it's his site and he sets the rules.

    I didn't agree afterwards how erie approached this on this site, almost trying to make himself a martyr for the cause with some of his acts...

    Which is fine - his tact, and he is his own man.

    But I will applaud his effort, the way he raised awareness and how he got it done. He had a vision, had a strong opinion - which is that of many in this fan-base - and he just did not sit and talk the talk...

    He walked the walk and got the billboard up. And that at least deserves some acknowledgment and a tip of the hat because many will talk and gripe about things that happen. Others act...

    And he acted and got his message out.

    Whether you agree with the billboard going up or not. Whether you think it will do anything, change the course of the team or make Al alter his way of thinking...

    It doesn't matter. What matters is that he took action to be heard.
    Very well said, RINY ...

  6. #246
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    How billboard drive got started

    By Jerry McDonald - NFL Writer
    Tuesday, December 1st, 2009 at 10:43 pm in Oakland Raiders.

    The amazing thing is Jared Staszewski never saw the Raiders win a Super Bowl.

    Never saw Ken Stabler play quarterback.

    Never witnessed Art Shell and Gene Upshaw blotting out the right side of the opponents’ defensive line.

    He’s 22 years old. It was enough to watch from Pennsylvania as a teenager and watch the Rich Gannon-Jon Gruden Raiders win a couple of AFC West titles before giving way to Bill Callahan’s conference champions in 2002.

    The Raiders like to say they’re global. They at least made it to Erie.

    Stasewski’s never even been to California, but somehow silver and black permeated his being and now he’s organizing a drive which led to www.***********.com and a bill for a billboard at I-880 North at High Street at the Coliseum, with a plea for Al Davis to call for a general manager.

    If he’d have sat with my dad as I did and watched the Raiders drive the length of the field to beat the Dolphins in the Sea of Hands (and not been afflicted with becoming a sportswriter), no telling what he’d do.

    I’m too much of a skeptic to think the plea of Staszewski’s grassroots plea will do any good. Colleague Monte Poole, in his Wednesday column for Bay Area News Group papers, obviously feels the same way.

    I may be older and jaded, but it’s hard not to to applaud the effort. The plea and press release were made with obvious passion for the team as well as respect, not to mention their own pocketbooks.

    When I talked to Staszewski this afternoon, he stressed the story wasn’t about him. He said along with another Raider fan who wishes to remain anonymous and is currently living in Mexico organized the effort. He claims 21,000 signatures, is looking for 50,000, and said nearly $2,000 of the $5,000 cost has been raised for the billboard. (A credit line was received to pay for it). The Raiders have spawned a vast network of Internet message boards and fan sites, with www.*************.com playing a role in promoting the effort.

    Recent efforts at Raiders games, according to Staszewski, secured donations ranging from a dollar to $200.

    The billboard will probably be up a month, approximately when the season ends, in full view of those heading I-880 North and those rubberneckers heading south. Staszewski, who saw his last Raiders game in Week 3 last season in Buffalo, hopes to attend his first Raiders home game against the Ravens in the finale.

    By that time, the number of signatures on the petition may outnumber fans in the seats.

    How billboard drive got started - Inside the Oakland Raiders - A look inside the world of the highly classified Oakland Raiders from the writers of Bay Area News Group

  7. #247
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    I read this on another site and it pretty much sums up how I feel on this:

    Sometimes something just doesn’t feel right. Even if you agree with the cause, the supporters or the intentions, right is still right and wrong is still wrong.

    Just because you say what you have done is “respectful” doesn’t make it so. I don’t know Jared Staszewski from Adam, but how in the heck does a 22-year-old Raider fan become “disenfranchised?”

    He was all of thirteen the last time the Raiders had a winning record, so what is he basing this on?

    I can’t think of anything more disrespectful than some kid, publicly calling out an NFL legend, telling him how to run his billion dollar company. Managing general partner Al Davis has been in professional football for 49 years. He has been an assistant coach, head coach, general manager and Commissioner of the American Football League. The Raiders, now in their 50th year have been in five Super Bowls, had 21 playoff seasons and played in 40 postseason games. What has Jared Staszewski done to make him qualified to question any football decision Mr. Davis makes.

    Now, I have not fallen on my head, I know how bad the last seven years have been. I know all about the questionable drafts, coaches and schemes. I understand the frustration of the fans. But Davis has earned the right to make those calls.

    Mr. Davis has more vested in the Raiders than any man ever will. He is the face of the franchise and clearly he is defined by the franchise. Mr. Davis wants to win more than anyone in the stadium on Sundays. This billboard was, in my opinion, a poorly thought out idea that just brings another black eye to the team.
    Some exceptional quotes, for me, have been bolded.

    Personally, I do not think the Raiders necessarily need a "GM" or Al nees to move on. When you look at the periods in Raider history where there has been success, there has always been one, or a few, people around Davis to discuss the direction of the team on the field (I will leave out the re-location/business side). In Madden's day, it was Madden, Ron Wolf, the OC and DC that would discuss everything. Similarly with Flores. With Gruden, it was just he and Al with Bruce Allen running in between. The difference with these era's was they would challenge Al, or make their points by bringing film or whatever was needed to show what they wanted to do, or why they wanted to do things a certain way and how/why it would work.

    If you show Al how you can make something work he will let you do it and continue to do so while it works. The opposite also holds true where those around can learn and be assisted by Al's input. What has happened in recent years is that there is no one well-enough credentialled (except maybe Turner to a degree), to go into a meeting with Al and debate the pro's and con's of what they want to do, or to show Al what he is proposing will not work and why.

    Now, this seems to be working to a small extent with Cable. However, I think not having a true OC does not help the cause. If it was Cable's decision to bench Russell, then Gradkowski's limitations do not help the cause, either, but his limited success is showing up Russell's inadequacies thus far. As for Marshall, things I have heard makes me think he does not either have the confidence or mental strength to go and discuss with Al. However, it would be interesting to find out, for example, who's idea it was to play Trevor Scott as a hybrid LB against the Cowboys. It was certainly something not seen before.

    IMO, I would like to see Cable back. He seems to have the player's belief which is a good start. However, he must get an OC and, with the DC (if that is Marshall again or whoever), the 3 need to go to Al and say this is what we want to do and why it should/will work. And what they also must do is get the roster right for 2010 as well. Some tough decisions need to be made around the QB, RB (or use of), WR and o-line spots just for starters.
    THE Raiders 2014 Draft Class:
    Khalil Mack, OLB, Buffalo
    Derek Carr, QB, Fresno State
    Gabe Jackson, G, Mississippi State
    Justin Ellis, NT, Louisiana Tech
    Keith McGill, DB, Utah
    Travis Carrie, CB, Ohio
    Shelby Harris, DE, Illinois State
    Jonathon Dowling, FS, Western Kentucky

    QANTAS - even when an engine explodes the catering/service is STILL the biggest disaster on a Qantas flight!!!

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by BK View Post
    Exactly!

    A more respectful approach would of been to send a letter to the organization and include such a petition with all the fans that want to be part of it. Putting up a billboard only creates a bigger divide amongst the fans, the Raiders organization, the media and etc...

    Does anyone actually think Al Davis will read that billboard and say, yeah I'm going to step down now? It will probably have the opposite effect!
    I could not disagree more ... send a letter to Raider headquarters ... : ... might as well just put the letter and petition in a bottle, addressed to Al Davis and put it in the bay.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raider_Demon View Post
    WTF kind of lame azz example is that . lol

    Ok lets get somethings into perspective really quickly. First and formost. No one on this site sits down with AL Davis and has dinner and talks about what AL thinks. I dont care if you are a 45 year fan who has seen every AL Davis Interview and seen every Raider Game. Unless you are reading AL Davis's diary , you know only a little more than the next guy in line.

    Presumtions by lifelong raider fans who think they Know exactly what AL Davis is going to do is a opinion like any other. It is worth nothing and you cant sell it for anything because everyone has one already.

    Here is a nice little scenario that is a little more to the point. LKNRaiderFan your bed is on fire and you dont notice it. You can smell something burning and it feels a little hot in your room. Someone whispers in your ear that youre bed is on fire. But you choose to ignore them because you are sleeping and there is no possability that your bed could be on fire. Yet they keep whispering and you keep smelling something burning and its getting Hotter. You think more whispering and maybe a tap on the shoulder will work ? Or maybe a good hard slap across the face to Wake you the Fuk up to see that your bed is on fire would be a little more appropiate.

    I can offer a single good thing that could come from this BillBoard. Ill just throw it out there . AL Hires a GM for the Raiders. Wow that wasnt very hard was it.

    The Billboard was done as it should be. Addressing the problem tactfuly and to the point.
    My gosh, you have TOTALLY missed my points.

    First, you talk about folks not knowing details about Al and what he has or hasn't done (as if you do) but then blindly miss the fact that calling him out on a billboard and telling him what to do actually DOES assume someone DOES know everything that has gone on within the organization and has some right to publicly force him in a particular direction.

    (I can't speak for others on this site. But since you are responding to me I must point out that I never, ever said I knew what was Al has done or is doing, or what goes on behind closed doors at Raider headquarters.)

    You're trying to twist my post into a discussion to what YOU want to talk about (obviously anti-Al in nature) instead of addressing what I actually said. MY point was that there is a right and wrong way to communicate a message and that if you want your message to be heard you need to say it in a constructive way.

    This billboard is NOT positive and is NOT constructive.

    Then, your scenario about smacking someone because their bed is on fire is is nothing more than your effort to say that Al has no clue what is going on with his team or what could be done to make it better.

    Finally, claiming that the billboard COULD cause Al to hire a GM is about as reasonable as saying my refrigerator COULD prevent global warming if I leave the door open. Duh...

    If you want to discuss my post, jump off your anti-Al bias bandwagon long enough to realize that I wasn't even talking about him. My whole point had to do with the right and wrong way to communicate a message and that you should try to share your ideas it in a positive, constructive manner if you want your message to be considered.

    That bulletin board is not a communication effort. It is what it is... an insult ... one that will not help anything Raider related in any way.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmauke View Post
    I don't want people to think that I blindly go around deciding who is a fan and who isn't. I hate having to call other Raiders fans bandwagon fans, there was a time when I didn't think that existed. The reality is that there are fans that will not feel the same way about the team when they are losing then when they were winning. As disappointing as the losing is, I have no doubt the team will once again reign in the AFC West. I see posts of people who are embarrassed to walk around wearing Raiders memorabilia. A Raiders fan should never be embarrassed to show their support of the team. When people here in Arizona see my Raiders shirt or hat, they say something about the Raiders, and how hard it must be for me to be a fan. I tell them actually it's not that hard, and people should get their digs in now, because there will be a time when the team will be back on top dominating once again.

    I chose to be a Raiders fan, and that includes Al Davis. It includes every player that played for the Raiders. Yes I'm a Todd Marinovich fan, I went to his first start and that so happens to be the only game I ever attended with my Dad. I chose to be a Raiders fan and that includes the history of the team, I didn't choose to only be a fan right now.

    When I was a kid I didn't like Al Davis. Marcus Allen was my favorite player and I didn't like what was done to him. I liked other players too that went into the doghouse. I didn't like Al Davis because other Raiders fans and football fans told me things about him, and I was a kid so of course I was influenced easily. Then I grew up, and in a lot of aspects decided to come to my own conclusions and think for myself. I took it upon myself to stop listening to other fans and media, and did my own research. I decided to stop listening to people blaming a man, which in my opinion was hard to believe that one person had so much affect on so many variables. I found out that Davis was nothing liked they claimed and found out that he had many qualities that I admired. When I was a teenager I spent a lot of time breaking down tape and learning the x's and o's. When my friends went out, I was in my room watching tape and drawing up plays. I was a football nerd, but I had passion for the game, and I had passion for the Raiders. I was enthusiastic about the game, and about winning, and that was Al Davis in a nutshell. So not only was he the owner of my favorite football team, he was also a person I aspired to be.

    people may think I'm a blind follower of the man, but I assure you I know why I respect him, and in my opinion he has earned the right to decide when his time is up. I just wish others could see what I see.
    No doubt about that ... doesn't mean we cannot ask, beg, plead for him to do it ASAP!

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by djh_raider View Post
    I read this on another site and it pretty much sums up how I feel on this:

    Sometimes something just doesn’t feel right. Even if you agree with the cause, the supporters or the intentions, right is still right and wrong is still wrong.

    Just because you say what you have done is “respectful” doesn’t make it so. I don’t know Jared Staszewski from Adam, but how in the heck does a 22-year-old Raider fan become “disenfranchised?”

    He was all of thirteen the last time the Raiders had a winning record, so what is he basing this on?

    I can’t think of anything more disrespectful than some kid, publicly calling out an NFL legend, telling him how to run his billion dollar company. Managing general partner Al Davis has been in professional football for 49 years. He has been an assistant coach, head coach, general manager and Commissioner of the American Football League. The Raiders, now in their 50th year have been in five Super Bowls, had 21 playoff seasons and played in 40 postseason games. What has Jared Staszewski done to make him qualified to question any football decision Mr. Davis makes.

    Now, I have not fallen on my head, I know how bad the last seven years have been. I know all about the questionable drafts, coaches and schemes. I understand the frustration of the fans. But Davis has earned the right to make those calls.

    Mr. Davis has more vested in the Raiders than any man ever will. He is the face of the franchise and clearly he is defined by the franchise. Mr. Davis wants to win more than anyone in the stadium on Sundays. This billboard was, in my opinion, a poorly thought out idea that just brings another black eye to the team.
    Awesome find that communicates a perspective I have to agree with in many respects... especially the part about bringing another black eye to the team. I'm sure some of the media and other Raider haters are laughing... and may have actually contributed to the bulletin board.

    Rep to ya.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anakin View Post
    Some of you may or may not know this already but the Message To Al movement was actually born on this forum but quickly got the boot it seems. Somehow and thank God some way fans were able to rally together to make the idea become reality rather than just cheap talk. I for one think it's amazing and I applaud every single fan that put any kind of effort into the movement. I really wish this forum would just allow talk about it on here because it's a HUGE topic and it IS Raider related. This is the most interesting news I've read about all season I think.
    Totally agree ... It is the single most relevant thing related to winning in the NFL that has happened in Oakland in several years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by als_shadow View Post
    I was waited for you to post BK so I could post again.

    In order to really believe in this billboard, you must assume all of the following to be true:
    1) Al Davis does not want to win;
    2) Al Davis does not know that we are losing;
    3) Anybody else must be a better GM than AL Davis;
    4) Al Davis hasn't noticed that attendence and revenues are down;
    5) Al Davis does not need revenue to win;
    and 6) Al Davis is the kind of man who doesn't hold grudges and likes to be critized by his own supporters.

    You wait. You want to see losing? How does getting shutout every week sound?

    I am just hopeful that the 9/11 NFL owner's conspiracy ends this year.
    Maybe not ... but not many people could be much worse!

    How many of the players that he has brought in and paid millions and millions of dollars to over the past 5-6 years have contributed anything meaningful?

    How many millions of dollars have sat on the bench or on the inactive list or been cut over the past 5-6 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by djh_raider View Post
    I read this on another site and it pretty much sums up how I feel on this:

    Sometimes something just doesn’t feel right. Even if you agree with the cause, the supporters or the intentions, right is still right and wrong is still wrong.

    Just because you say what you have done is “respectful” doesn’t make it so. I don’t know Jared Staszewski from Adam, but how in the heck does a 22-year-old Raider fan become “disenfranchised?”

    He was all of thirteen the last time the Raiders had a winning record, so what is he basing this on?

    I can’t think of anything more disrespectful than some kid, publicly calling out an NFL legend, telling him how to run his billion dollar company. Managing general partner Al Davis has been in professional football for 49 years. He has been an assistant coach, head coach, general manager and Commissioner of the American Football League. The Raiders, now in their 50th year have been in five Super Bowls, had 21 playoff seasons and played in 40 postseason games. What has Jared Staszewski done to make him qualified to question any football decision Mr. Davis makes.

    Now, I have not fallen on my head, I know how bad the last seven years have been. I know all about the questionable drafts, coaches and schemes. I understand the frustration of the fans. But Davis has earned the right to make those calls.

    Mr. Davis has more vested in the Raiders than any man ever will. He is the face of the franchise and clearly he is defined by the franchise. Mr. Davis wants to win more than anyone in the stadium on Sundays. This billboard was, in my opinion, a poorly thought out idea that just brings another black eye to the team.

    Some exceptional quotes, for me, have been bolded.

    Personally, I do not think the Raiders necessarily need a "GM" or Al nees to move on. When you look at the periods in Raider history where there has been success, there has always been one, or a few, people around Davis to discuss the direction of the team on the field (I will leave out the re-location/business side). In Madden's day, it was Madden, Ron Wolf, the OC and DC that would discuss everything. Similarly with Flores. With Gruden, it was just he and Al with Bruce Allen running in between. The difference with these era's was they would challenge Al, or make their points by bringing film or whatever was needed to show what they wanted to do, or why they wanted to do things a certain way and how/why it would work.

    If you show Al how you can make something work he will let you do it and continue to do so while it works. The opposite also holds true where those around can learn and be assisted by Al's input. What has happened in recent years is that there is no one well-enough credentialled (except maybe Turner to a degree), to go into a meeting with Al and debate the pro's and con's of what they want to do, or to show Al what he is proposing will not work and why.

    [remander cut]
    Today's Americans do not understand the principle of respect. Criticizing someone on a billboard is disrespectful, by definition. In many cases, it is also defamation of character. Being polite and saying "please" doesn't matter. It's like saying "please, may I call you an axxhole in front of the whole world?".

    They also don't understand the fundamentals involved with a winning pro football organization. One of the NECESSARY fundamentals is filling the stadium and blindly cheering for the home team. This is called the "home town advantage". It is a proven and well-documented fundamental.

    Most of the billboard supporters also support a fan boycott to punish Al Davis, on the theory that only Al Davis is affected. Yet, in their other hand, they agree that THEIR ATTENDANCE helps the team win more games. So they bittch that the team is in a long losing streak, and do everything that they can to make it worse - under the theory that only Al Davis is at fault.

    Loyal fans, by definition, support the team regardless of the record. Putting up billboards and boycotting games hurt the team and are examples of NOT supporting the team. But, no matter the evidence, because they are all wearing "anti-Al Davis" glasses , so rational discussion does not affect them.

    They will do it anyway.

    Al Davis will give his answer.
    Locals in Oakland boycott the Raiders, causing 9,000+ seats to be empty and blocked off. Yet, those same locals think the Raiders CAN'T leave Oakland for elsewhere. The other 31 NFL owners are losing $$$ too because of the boycott. Yes, Mark CAN get permission to move.

    Everything I post is my opinion as I am an anonymous internet poster. Respect your fellow Raider family members.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjayboogie View Post
    my donation to the billboard was very simple. Instead of boycotting the KC home game I was going to go to or paying for a ticket and seeing us lose again....I donated it to a movement that pretty much let's me vent.

    Al will not care...but the media does and will play it as yet another fan revolt and AL will hear that. Nothing will change but when we have the next projector performance he will get a legit question about how the fans think he is in over his head....and he'll have to answer it.

    And if none of those things happen..seeing what I donated to come to fruition and get national run is all good...
    Absolutely right!!! Al will hear this. Who knows what he will do about it (actually, we all have a pretty good idea) ... but he will hear this.

    Little steps ...

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