[OWShaddock]

Originally Posted by Moriarty

People are judging by a 2 month old photo...
And concern at the college level about lackadaisical effort and poor preparation...
And a years worth of poor QB play at the NFL level...
And the move to bring in a backup QB that's known for preparation and conditioning...
And concern expressed directly by the head coach...


This isn't rocket science...

Amen.
Apparently Tom Cable can say it, Al Davis can take action that says it (i.e. signing Garcia), photos can show it, his college coach's actions can show it, etc. ... yet some think it's inappropriate for us to even discuss it.

[Moriarty]

Originally Posted by Snoop750

Do you pay attention to brady quinn as much as you claim. To say he should have been the #1 overall pick is a true joke. When 21 other teams passed on him, you still argue he was the true #1.

Actually he never argued that at all...in fact he explicitly said that neither were true #1 overall picks.

How are you going to argue with someone if you don't read what they write? You're just going to make up things they said?

[jtagg7754]

Originally Posted by Snoop750

Do you pay attention to brady quinn as much as you claim. To say he should have been the #1 overall pick is a true joke. When 21 other teams passed on him, you still argue he was the true #1. Do you pay attention to the draft, or do you just claim to know more than 22 teams (since you still feel JaMarcus shouldnt have been number 1.)
Also what kind of argument is this against JaMarcus, when he is only going into year 2 as the starter. Can you tell me how many QBs have completely turned around a franchise that has missed the playoffs 6 consecutive seasons in one season. Posters have even shown stats that JaMarcus' numbers arent that far off from Manning's when he was a rookie. Not to say that he is the next manning, just that rookies do struggle.
You're own argument seems to contradict itself. You seem to understand that JaMarcus was "RAW" when we drafted him, yet expected him to turn around our franchise after 1 season. How does this even remotely make any sense???

Do I? Ha ha ha, that's kinda funny. I live in Ohio and know tons of ND fans so games are always around me and I also live in a large population of Browns fan. While I am a Raiders fan, I still keep up on local ball.

You also seem to be confused b/c if you go towards the top of the page in which you typed this, I surely stated Quinn wasn't worthy of being the number one overall pick either.

i never said I expected him to produce right away. In fact, you quoted what I expected of him. I said, and you quoted, he's a RAW product. Who in the world expects a person like that to come in and produce right away? Please don't attempt to put words into my mouth which you've done pretty much this entire post, please.

Your whole post was just flat out wrong assumptions w/ all the supporting evidence right on the same page. I need not comment further.

[bigjayboogie]

Originally Posted by jtagg7754

Better attitude? It's easy, watch both of them talk from a neutral standpoint. He's more well spoken and seems to have a ton more drive than Russell, ergo, better attitude.

I know it's a lame source, but he did score higher on the Wonderlic and not only that, I've seen both play a lot and Quinn just has better decision making. That's all.

Look at their personnel. Those ND teams were not good, at all.

Woah, wait. Where are your 29th and 6th coming from?

Please link where you read that. All I've read is that he's taking over the starting job..... already in what was supposed to be a battle between him and Anderson.

If you don't see how Quinn has a better work ethic, I believe you purposely wearing blinders.

And more experience in terms of how many JR QBs have been successful in the league? Luckily Russell was drafted first overall b/c I'm sure if he were drafted in Quinn's spot, there's a damn good chance he'd be in the EXACT situation. And keep in mind, our organization isn't exactly the smartest of the 32 franchises and that's not secret. We kinda make stupid decisions often.

And for the record, I wanted Calvin Johnson w/ that pick.

attitude thing is your own stereotype...I have it too of how people from the south talk...Jamarcus has a southern drawl...ergo...he don't sound well spoken or smart.....

I got my accuracy numbers from 2006 NCAA stats as that was the last time they both played a full season....I know you aren't trying to compare stats between a backup and a starter...that's apples and oranges....

work ethic has zero to do with what your body looks like. If you think it does then I am thinking work ethic does not mean what you think it means....seriously.

I wanted calvin johnson to an extent too...but I had this glaring question...who was going to throw him the ball?!?!?

[OTF]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl34

How do you win? Ask Gannon how you win. Ask Gannon if hard work is important. .

Ask Gannon why he didn't work hard enough to earn starts until his 4th year in the NFL. Ask Gannon why he only completed 52% of his passed, only won 5 out of 12 starts and threw 16 INTs his first year as a starter. I guess he didn't work hard then?

Ask him why he played worse in his 4th year in the NFL then Russell did in his 2nd year; was it because he was lazier then Russell is now?

Gannon was a great QB for us but it took him time to develop, just like Joe Montana, John Elway and most HOF QBs took time to develop. We should give Russell time to develop!

[jtagg7754]

Originally Posted by Moriarty

So you acknowledge that not physically preparing can lead to failure...and you're surprised that some Raider fans are concerned about our starting QB potentially not physically preparing?

You can't clearly see how the starting QB potentially making decisions that lead to failure would provoke discussion on a Raiders discussion forum?

I'm not even personally that concerned by these photos, but the logical hoops some of you are jumping through amaze me. Apparently we're at the point that we must believe physical conditioning has no bearing on a professional athlete's success, in order to accommodate our 23 year old, out of shape millionaire QB.



People are judging by a 2 month old photo...
And concern at the college level about lackadaisical effort and poor preparation...
And a years worth of poor QB play at the NFL level...
And the move to bring in a backup QB that's known for preparation and conditioning...
And concern expressed directly by the head coach...


This isn't rocket science...

I usually dig what BigJay has to say, but he's time and time again tried to say that just b/c you prepare doesn't mean you'll win and also seems to completely disregard that it most certainly helps..... A LOT. Obvious things are obvious, of course it doesn't mean you're gonna win, no one needs to tell us that. Maybe it's just for the sake of supporting our QB, who knows.

Regardless though, you seem to have nailed it down. There's so many reasons why Russell has that question mark over him and he's not doing a whole lot to get rid of it.

Good post.

[jtagg7754]

Originally Posted by bigjayboogie

I wanted calvin johnson to an extent too...but I had this glaring question...who was going to throw him the ball?!?!?

Seriously? The guy throwing it to him right now in Detroit. You also do realize that a damn good QB prospect in Trent Edwards could have been obtained in the second round right? He's just not "sexy" enough for Al to pick. Not only that, who's to say we couldn't have got another QB via free agency or the draft in the following year?

I LOVE IT when people try to use this defense for not wanting Johnson. Seriously. He made Reggie Ball look like a damn All-American at GT. He's a FREAK. There really hasn't been a better can't miss prospect in the history of the NFL at the WR position. Tall, GREAT hands, can jump, fast as hell, proved he could run routes, great attitude. Can't miss and we passed him up for a "sexy" pick. I really wouldn't expect the "who's gonna throw him the ball" to come from you. It's such a bone-headed question and you're waaaay beyond that.

Bottom line, Al is a moron. But we know this.

[bigjayboogie]

Originally Posted by OWShaddock

Amen.
Apparently Tom Cable can say it, Al Davis can take action that says it (i.e. signing Garcia), photos can show it, his college coach's actions can show it, etc. ... yet some think it's inappropriate for us to even discuss it.

wow...way to blow something to extreme levels. I have only objected to dudes like at glam pics. I have never said that critiquing him was inappropriate. I said looking at club pics like some cross-eyed groupie and trying to make a seirous determination as to his physical fitness is...well heck....INSANE..and I'm trying to be nice here.

Ultimately....bring it to where it matters...show me where any of these traits have helped or hurt jamarcus' development. Judge him for what he does on the field. If he was not developing mentally and physically he would not have been able to perform on the field and show study improvement throughout the year. I think if he comes in the same weight he is fine...if he comes in with the same mental development then he will continue to struggle and we have our answer.

The fact that he is struggling no more than any other QB going into their 2nd year starting is why I am not panicking trying to get on TMZ to see if our QB "looks fat"....I mean...that's hot...Man...this is just so sad....

with all the problems this team has I can not believe this sh!t has come to..."do I look fat in this?"

At the other end of the spectrum...everyone assumes people have excellent work ethics because they are gym rats and they win...if work ethic and lifting weights was all it took to be sucessful we would have quite a number of more pro athletes.

[R8RFOX]

Originally Posted by OTF

Ask Gannon why he didn't work hard enough to earn starts until his 4th year in the NFL. Ask Gannon why he only completed 52% of his passed, only won 5 out of 12 starts and threw 16 INTs his first year as a starter. I guess he didn't work hard then?

Ask him why he played worse in his 4th year in the NFL then Russell did in his 2nd year; was it because he was lazier then Russell is now?

Gannon was a great QB for us but it took him time to develop, just like Joe Montana, John Elway and most HOF QBs took time to develop. We should give Russell time to develop!

Holy shyt! Someone that makes sense on this!! I think I'm going to faint...

[OTF]

Originally Posted by jtagg7754

Seriously? The guy throwing it to him right now in Detroit. You also do realize that a damn good QB prospect in Trent Edwards could have been obtained in the second round right?

Edwards had 2 more wins last year then Russell so it can't be wins, must be the stats. He threw less TDs and more INTs so then I guess he is a lot better then Russell.

If our defense held up then Edwards and Russell would have had the same amount of wins.

[OWShaddock]

Originally Posted by bigjayboogie

wow...way to blow something to extreme levels. I have only objected to dudes like at glam pics. I have never said that critiquing him was inappropriate. I said looking at club pics like some cross-eyed groupie and trying to make a seirous determination as to his physical fitness is...well heck....INSANE..and I'm trying to be nice here.

Cross-eyed groupie. Nice.
Let me know what and when it's OK to discuss the most important player in the Raiders organization
Second NFL season? Nope ... too soon.
Off-season work habits? Nope .. still learning.
Minicamp? Nope ... it's only May.
Appearing overweight? Nope ... photos are meaningless and prove nothing ... it's big T-shirt ... looking at them makes you less of a man.

At the other end of the spectrum...everyone assumes people have excellent work ethics because they are gym rats and they win...if work ethic and lifting weights was all it took to be sucessful we would have quite a number of more pro athletes.

Like I said earlier, working hard doesn't guarantee success, but not working hard darn near guarantees failure.

[jtagg7754]

Originally Posted by OTF

Edwards had 2 more wins last year then Russell so it can't be wins, must be the stats. He threw less TDs and more INTs so then I guess he is a lot better then Russell.

If our defense held up then Edwards and Russell would have had the same amount of wins.

Wins..... really? That's what you're gonna judge them by especially when they played in arguably the hardest division in football and us the easiest?? You're 100% joking right?? And when did I say he's better? I said "a damn good QB prospect".

Will people in here please quit putting words into my mouth for the sake of their argument? Seriously, if you don't have the knowledge to defend your claims and you need to make up stuff, why even bother?

[bigjayboogie]

Originally Posted by jtagg7754

Seriously? The guy throwing it to him right now in Detroit. You also do realize that a damn good QB prospect in Trent Edwards could have been obtained in the second round right? He's just not "sexy" enough for Al to pick. Not only that, who's to say we couldn't have got another QB via free agency or the draft in the following year?

I LOVE IT when people try to use this defense for not wanting Johnson. Seriously. He made Reggie Ball look like a damn All-American at GT. He's a FREAK. There really hasn't been a better can't miss prospect in the history of the NFL at the WR position. Tall, GREAT hands, can jump, fast as hell, proved he could run routes, great attitude. Can't miss and we passed him up for a "sexy" pick. I really wouldn't expect the "who's gonna throw him the ball" to come from you. It's such a bone-headed question and you're waaaay beyond that.

Bottom line, Al is a moron. But we know this.

lol...Trent Edwards and daunte culpeper.....ohhhhhhkaaaay...yeah because daunte looked soooo good in his time with Oakland..and didn't we sign him AFTER we drafted russell? yep..I believe we did...so we had Walter and McCown at the time of the pick. Trent Edwards is a bum...I have heard the whole...we could draft megatron and then got edwards like kiffin wanted to do debate before. I think kiffin would have made a bigger screw up of megatron than he did of russell.

I'll say what I said then when I got involved in the same debate....if you have the #1 pick and you have a need for a QB of the future and a wide receiver...you take the QB...the Russell/Johnson debate has some of the same pro vs. con debates. Both were physical freaks....so when it came down to it...who was freakier...al went with Jamarcus. We had two huge holes well actually one...we still thought Jerry Porter and Gabriel were going to do something for us....the thought was all we needed was someone to get them the ball...I mean that's why we couldn't properly utilize moss...so it was said.

It's frankly not bone-headed..it was a legit question. McCown and Walter were the QBs on the roster when it came time to pick...so the QB hole was HUUUUUUUGE...I think the debate about megatron vs. russell wasn't even timely..it is now because megatron is a stud...but at the time of the pick it was quin vs. russell....

[bigjayboogie]

Originally Posted by OWShaddock

Cross-eyed groupie. Nice.
Let me know what and when it's OK to discuss the most important player in the Raiders organization
Second NFL season? Nope ... too soon.
Off-season work habits? Nope .. still learning.
Minicamp? Nope ... it's only May.
Appearing overweight? Nope ... photos are meaningless and prove nothing ... it's big T-shirt ... looking at them makes you less of a man.



Like I said earlier, working hard doesn't guarantee success, but not working hard darn near guarantees failure.

the only thing I have objected to is looking at his pic and trying to make a determination...I have had no problem with the other criticisms....I only submit that none of them should give anyone reason to panic. I mean...panic all you want..they don't panic me.

[bigjayboogie]

Originally Posted by OTF

Ask Gannon why he didn't work hard enough to earn starts until his 4th year in the NFL. Ask Gannon why he only completed 52% of his passed, only won 5 out of 12 starts and threw 16 INTs his first year as a starter. I guess he didn't work hard then?

Ask him why he played worse in his 4th year in the NFL then Russell did in his 2nd year; was it because he was lazier then Russell is now?

Gannon was a great QB for us but it took him time to develop, just like Joe Montana, John Elway and most HOF QBs took time to develop. We should give Russell time to develop!

they don't want none of that....and I think with this this thread is closed.