Let's Be Honest About Al . . . .

[MaddenRaider]

I think you believe too much of what comes out of Raiders headquarters, Calico.

[GRaider]

Originally Posted by paul0660

I actually predate Al, having been to my first Raider game in 1962. My dad loved the idea of not having to drive to Frisco from Concord to see pro football, so we dumped the Niners and became Raiders fans. When Al showed up in 63 he was like a rock star with a chip on his shoulder, and in just a few years he had changed football forever, and made the Raiders a household name that was respected and feared.

BUT I think the Shark is right on almost every point, and hubris is exactly what the problem is. (Overbearing pride or presumption is the best definition of that word btw). Al had early success, and he has made some gambles that turned out to be brilliant successes, but he has screwed up enough to be fired a dozen times if he weren't self employed. Meanwhile, as Shark pointed out, he as screwed fans and municipalities without guilt, confident that the Raider fan base will remain. We do, and the hubris grows, despite personnel decisions in players and staff that have made the Raiders a laughing stock.

There is no doubt in my mind that when Al retires or passes, the Raiders will improve dramatically. The icon will be gone, but we will be able to honor his memory by recalling the good times, forgetting the failures, and being fans of a team that will have, finally, entered the 21st century.

Solid post! Rep to you!

[paul0660]

will be honest about Al.

I think he has struck gold with Kiffin.

I think Al has given Kiffin more authority & latitude than any 1st year coach.

I think his motivations & heart is always in the right place ... to win.

I think he has made numerous mistakes in his career. He is human.

I think he should be credited with the Raiders rich history & traditions.

I think he hurts 100X more than any Raider fan for the past 4 year's failures.

I think he has been a trailblazing football pioneer.

I think he will fight for Raiders glory til his last dying breath of air.

I lost this thread, and would have let it die, except that:

Al has sued the pants off of municipalities, and the league, and benched players who were stars, and hired players and staff who were hacks, simply to

make some dough

be the tough guy

show players there is no way but his

try to find the next Plunkett (who was a backup for two years btw) or Gannon.

All of that, imo, is about Al, and has nothing to do with intelligent managing or coaching.

We are were we are right now, dreaming about JR, hoping Porter gets he head out of his butt, imagining that McCown is more than a journeyman, hoping that Culpepper has a miracle comeback, etc., etc., because that old man has expected almost pathetic coaching, and mediocre player talent, to succeed.

The entire last season was a bad dream that got worse every week..........remember that? If Al felt 100x worse about losing than some of the people I know on this board..........he woulda gone Cobain.

Stop making excuses for the old man, unless you get to his house frequently and hang out, because otherwise, you are serving a false master.

See you in September.

[Gotta Love Al]

I am one who tends to cut Al more slack due to what he was vs. what he is. Thanks for reminding me that people do change over time and Al has.

[BlackRain37]

Originally Posted by TheShark

I have been a Raider fan since the days of Daryl Lamonica. I am second to no one on this site in my loyalty to this team. However, loyalty does not need to be blind. There is nothing sadder than watching a family member ignore all the increasing problems of a loved one and covering up for them, over and over and over and over. I am gonna vent a bit on Big Al. My premise is summed up, in a roundabout way, by starting off with saying this: Hitler's blitzkrieg through Europe was a military masterstroke. The same generals later followed their "genius" into the snowdrifts of Stalingrad when he made the idiotic decision to take on two fronts. Al's "genius" career consisted of: (a) developing the AFL into a rival league, and eventually part of the NFL; (b) turning the Raiders into a super team in the 70's; (c) developing/hiring top coaches such as Madden, Flores, Gruden, and Shanahan; (d) being "player friendly" in an era when owners/coaches were often jerks to the players, and grabbing some old players to get the last top years from them; and (e) winning three Super Bowls. Davis no doubt deserves kudos for all the above. However, I think that over the years, Davis's hubris got so overbearing that he turned into an idiot, though admittedly one who can still make some good calls (the German attempt at the Battle of the Bulge was a masterstroke, even though it ultimately failed and the war was lost). Here are what I consider to be Al's biggest "dumbkopf" moves, and these are just the ones that occur to me: (a) Moving the team to LA, then (after stabbing the locals in the back) blowing his chance to hold a huge market in LA, along with losing 5 bajillion lawsuits against the NFL, and not even honoring season ticket holders from the Bay Area who wanted to buy season tix in LA; (b) getting into ridiculous tiffs with Marcus Allen such that Marcus sat and then went to a bitter division rival ("Marcus" and "JeMarcus" may soon mean the same thing to Al, unfortunately); (c) drafting very poorly in most recent years (not counting this one yet), including collecting armies of DB's to the expense of the rest of the roster; (d) dumping all-star coaches like Gruden and Shanahan; (e) ruining careers of talented players like Porter and Walter by allowing bizarre coaching behavior; and (e) letting talent go (Woodson, Beurlein, etc.); (f) until just recently, not letting his pr/team gear sales people really sell the team. In short, I love the guy, but I have no illusions anymore. He is a cranky, prideful, old dude with a nasty streak a mile long and a willingness to do whatever idiocy pops into his head, and "damn the torpedoes." I really hope this JeMarcus thing does not turn into one of those classic "screw you, you can sit for a year" fisaco's -- but it may. In sum, I just think the Raider Nation needs to realize the last view of their leader may be in the Berlin Bunker, with the bombs falling above. It's high time Al turned this team over to some younger, dedicated folks -- and I sincerely hope he does. I'm not young enough to take this anymore!!!!

Lets be honest, use paragraphs so I can read your post more clearly.

[ottojimotto]

I love Al Davis....and I disagree with your posting.

[JQNJRaider]

Originally Posted by BlackRain37

Lets be honest, use paragraphs so I can read your post more clearly.

Yeah, I like paragraphs to.There good. Especially when there are very, very, very long post being made.

[Calico Jack]

Originally Posted by MaddenRaider

I think you believe too much of what comes out of Raiders headquarters, Calico.

I assume you are referring to my post below. Please elaborate how you feel differently.

I will be honest about Al. >>> Just telling it like I see it

I think he has struck gold with Kiffin >>> Just my opinion. This was a risky hire that by all accounts is going EXTREMELY well.

I think Al has given Kiffin more authority & latitude than any 1st year coach. Kiffin retooled and hired more coaches than any other Raider HC in history. He also was the 1st HC to hire someone for the front office (Mark Jackson). We obviously don't know what goes on behind closed doors but the coaching hires, free agent acquisitions, and draft have Kiffin's prints all over it with a few possible exceptions (Higgins, Bowe)

I think his motivations & heart is always in the right place ... to win. The pro/anti Al folks can quibble about a lot of stuff but this is undeniable.

I think he has made numerous mistakes in his career. He is human.
Pretty self explanatory. No need to defend this statement.

I think he should be credited with the Raiders rich history & traditions.
IMO, Al Davis has been the architect of the Raiders in every sense of the word. He deserves his fair share of credit (and blame) where applicable.

I think he hurts 100X more than any Raider fan for the past 4 year's failures. Look. I have seen many interview videos, press conferences, and read numerous articles. Al Davis, figuratively speaking, lives & dies with how the team does. Kiffin even remarked that during his interview how much Al was hurting due to the team's shoddy past 4 years. The point I was trying to make is that Al Davis has been in the cross hairs of the press for numerous years but what he really cares about is winning.

I think he has been a trailblazing football pioneer. Hiring the 1st Hispanic HC, the 1st African American HC, the 1st Female CEO, drafting from small all black colleges, being a scout, asst. coach in college, recruiter, HC in the pros, commissioner, GM, Owner, HOF, etc...

I think he will fight for Raiders glory til his last dying breath of air. The Raiders are the reason Al has a purpose each & every day.

[Calico Jack]

Originally Posted by paul0660

I lost this thread, and would have let it die, except that:

Al has sued the pants off of municipalities, and the league, and benched players who were stars, and hired players and staff who were hacks, simply to

make some dough

be the tough guy

show players there is no way but his

try to find the next Plunkett (who was a backup for two years btw) or Gannon.

All of that, imo, is about Al, and has nothing to do with intelligent managing or coaching.

We are were we are right now, dreaming about JR, hoping Porter gets he head out of his butt, imagining that McCown is more than a journeyman, hoping that Culpepper has a miracle comeback, etc., etc., because that old man has expected almost pathetic coaching, and mediocre player talent, to succeed.

The entire last season was a bad dream that got worse every week..........remember that? If Al felt 100x worse about losing than some of the people I know on this board..........he woulda gone Cobain.

Stop making excuses for the old man, unless you get to his house frequently and hang out, because otherwise, you are serving a false master.

See you in September.

I'm not making any excuses for Al's past failures. I clearly state that he has made his fair share of mistakes. Last year was clearly an abomination on all fronts. BTW, I'm not serving any master. I do as I please and share my opinions just like you do. At the end of the day, we are merely fans of the same team. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Worrier]

The team will be better this year because Davis is healthy enough to attend practice and advise Kiff.

The JMarc holdout is probably a lockout. Remember the coaching debate over JMarc playing or sitting? Looks like Davis want's his QB of the future clean and shiny for next year.

Can't argue with that.

[GRaider]

Originally Posted by paul0660

I lost this thread, and would have let it die, except that:

Al has sued the pants off of municipalities, and the league, and benched players who were stars, and hired players and staff who were hacks, simply to

make some dough

be the tough guy

show players there is no way but his

try to find the next Plunkett (who was a backup for two years btw) or Gannon.

All of that, imo, is about Al, and has nothing to do with intelligent managing or coaching.

We are were we are right now, dreaming about JR, hoping Porter gets he head out of his butt, imagining that McCown is more than a journeyman, hoping that Culpepper has a miracle comeback, etc., etc., because that old man has expected almost pathetic coaching, and mediocre player talent, to succeed.

The entire last season was a bad dream that got worse every week..........remember that? If Al felt 100x worse about losing than some of the people I know on this board..........he woulda gone Cobain.

Stop making excuses for the old man, unless you get to his house frequently and hang out, because otherwise, you are serving a false master.

See you in September.

Sure is easy to sit in judgment when you know none of the facts isn't it? How's that 20/20 hindsight working for you?

[MaddenRaider]

Originally Posted by Calico Jack

I think his motivations & heart is always in the right place ... to win. The pro/anti Al folks can quibble about a lot of stuff but this is undeniable.

Actually, it's very deniable, Calico.

I DON'T think Al Davis wanted to win when he declined given Gruden a new contract after the '00 season.

I DON'T think Al Davis wanted to win when he traded Gruden to a team we would very likely have to play in the Super Bowl.

I DON'T think Al Davis wanted to win when he hired Norv Turner in '04. There were plenty of college coaches just like Kiffin available. Basically, anyone would have been better than Turner.

I think he has made numerous mistakes in his career. He is human.
Pretty self explanatory. No need to defend this statement.

I'm human too. Can I be g.m. of the Raiders? I mean, if that's a sole requirement, anymore.

I think he should be credited with the Raiders rich history & traditions.
IMO, Al Davis has been the architect of the Raiders in every sense of the word.

I think his record up until the mid '80s compared to his record since demonstrates that he is NOT the architect in every since of the word. I think he had a lot of help in his early years, and then ran that help out in the '80s, replacing those people with yes men.

I think he hurts 100X more than any Raider fan for the past 4 year's failures.

That doesn't justify the past 4 years. I'm sure it hurts every CEO when they fail. They're still replaced.