Let's Be Honest About Al . . . . - Page 3 - Oakland Raiders Forum | Message Board

**crizpynutz** · #31 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFF

Yeah, but will thay hold a presser when Al dies and say

"Dad has been phucking the Raiders up for yers. We are gonna throw all of his ****e out the window..."

or

"Al Davis was a great visionary. We will continue just s he would have."

Me? I don't know.

I am not saying the state of the raiderrs doesn't piss me off, I just don't think Al's leaving would automaticlly return us to greatness.

But I certainly understand the frustration.

Not only a valid, but great point. I've read where the Raiders over the last 4 years are the worst franchise in sports. Okay, whatever, agree or disagree, how about we consider the last 8 years then, we suddenly have to consider 3 division championships and a super bowl appearance.....Wonder if Detroit, Cleveland, Arizona, Houston, etc. would trade the their last 8 years with ours? Maybe not the last 4, but definitely the last 8....

Careful what you wish for because sometimes the grass isn't always greener. Who says we get an owner with a passion for winning at all? Just because it'll be different, doesn't mean better.

**JFF** · #32 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crizpynutz

Not only a valid, but great point. I've read where the Raiders over the last 4 years are the worst franchise in sports. Okay, whatever, agree or disagree, how about we consider the last 8 years then, we suddenly have to consider 3 division championships and a super bowl appearance.....Wonder if Detroit, Cleveland, Arizona, Houston, etc. would trade the their last 8 years with ours? Maybe not the last 4, but definitely the last 8....

Careful what you wish for because sometimes the grass isn't always greener. Who says we get an owner with a passion for winning at all? Just because it'll be different, doesn't mean better.

Thank you sir.

...and most of those teams have been rebuilding since inception.

Anyone wanna trade Al for the Texans ownership? The Lions? O no.

**Raider187** · #33 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 02:47 AM

I personally, like many others, have had issues with some of the things that Al has done in the past. But it's justy that: THE PAST! I'm tired of hearing and/or reading all of this pro/anti-Al threads. We're on the cusp of an exciting 2007 campaign. Probably the most anticipated season since the 2002 season. I'd rather get amped-the-f**k up about our upcoming opener against Detroit, than to keep coming up with opinions and theories as to what Al has done in the past. I love my Raiders man. And Al Davis is the mastermind for the team I love. Love him or hate him, take him or leave him, it ain't gona change any time soon. All hail the Silver & Black!

**JFF** · #34 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raider187

I personally, like many others, have had issues with some of the things that Al has done in the past. But it's justy that: THE PAST! I'm tired of hearing and/or reading all of this pro/anti-Al threads. We're on the cusp of an exciting 2007 campaign. Probably the most anticipated season since the 2002 season. I'd rather get amped-the-f**k up about our upcoming opener against Detroit, than to keep coming up with opinions and theories as to what Al has done in the past. I love my Raiders man. And Al Davis is the mastermind for the team I love. Love him or hate him, take him or leave him, it ain't gona change any time soon. All hail the Silver & Black!

Hail! Hail!

**crizpynutz** · #35 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crizpynutz

I'll say this, the truth is most certainly somewhere in the middle on Al Davis. Recent history included.

I had a post similar to the one I'm about to post before, but what the hell, (an as impartial as possible view).

1 - Coaching. Al has been successful and failed in hiring good coaches recently. For the Art Shells and Joe Bugels there is a Jon Gruden, Mike Shanahan and hopefully Lane Kiffin. For a Tom Walsh you have a Rob Ryan. The Gruden saga ended poorly and hurt Al's street cred with the younger coaching prospects, IMO. That happens when two massive egos meet and disagree - someone ends up on the outside and when one is the owner, it's pretty much a given who. If Al handles Kiffin better, that problem may be fixed. Time will tell on that one. In short, yeah, he's made some bad calls, but he's made some good ones too.

2 - Drafting. Okay, yeah, there have been some poor draft picks recently. Janikowski filled a big need, but really, a kicker in the first round? Napoleon Harris? Phillip Buchanon? Tyler Brayton? At the same time Nnamdi Asomugha, Fabian Washington, Kirk Morrison, Thomas Howard, Ron Curry, etc. have been IMO, great draft picks. Gallery is teetering on the edge of a bust, I'm hoping he pans out. We'll see about Russell, Miller, Huff et al later.

3 - Free Agents. Okay, Aaron Brooks looks like Martin Lawrence and played like him too, and Jordan has been a bust. Derrick Burgess panned out pretty well and so has Warren Sapp and hopefully Darius, Culpepper, Newberry, etc. work out. We'll certainly see. Davis has always valued players, has always compensated players fairly and expects the same in return. Marcus was also to blame for that relationship going south, it wasn't all Davis' fault. We'll see what happens with JaMarcus, but the irony in the name hasn't escaped me.

4 - Court Cases and the move. I don't like HOW Al handles these issues, but I do agree with where he is coming from. I look at the stadiums that the Patriots, Seahawks, Ravens, and now the Cardinals - the ****ing Cardinals!? are going to play in and I think about where the Raiders have played sience the 80's and neither L.A. nor Oakland has provided a state of the art facility. Al wants the best, Period. That counts for players and facilities - anything associated to the Raiders. Sometimes, a lot of times, he goes about getting it in a way that is abrasive and just plain shrewd. Can't say he's wrong, but he could learn a bit from the phrase, 'you catch more bees with honey'. Neither move was handled well in pissing off the fans, the cities and the NFL, but was Al really 'wrong' in his desire to leave either time? They belong in Oakland, always have, but they also need a stadium and deal that competes with the rest of the league. That's why the Rams left L.A. too, it's not like Al is alone in his beliefs there.

5 - Winning vs. Losing. The last four years have been almost like watching an alzheimer's patient deteriorate. You knew it was happening right before your eyes. In stubborn defiance you try to latch onto that one good moment of clarity and cling to the hope that things will get better. However, from the late 90's to early 2000's we experienced what it was like to be at the top of the league. Went to a Super Bowl and lost. It sucked and it hurt, but let's not diminish the greatness of those teams. Rich Gannon, Rod Woodson, Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Lincoln Kennedy and a bunch of young guys to compliment those crafty vets. The mid-90's pretty much was mediocre to bad with the late 80's to early 90's a bit better. Al must deal with the criticism for the failures, but he also needs to get credit for the successes.

6 - Al has to go? I'm not so sure. I do believe that people can't expect him to change how he works and runs the Raiders. It's either Al's team or it's not. He meddles but IMO, not as much as some believe. Will he ever just be an owner and not meddle? Probably not. Does that mean he 'has to go'? Not necessarily. If Al can find a coach who can deal with him AND get the players to believe and buy in, then of course it can work. Will it happen again - dude, I don't have a crystal ball so I don't know.

I can't change who the owner is, so while Al is around, I'll try to remember the good AND the bad, the successes AND the failures and take it for what it's worth. Al made the Raiders who they are and one can only hope he can regain the greatness that many fell in love with years ago. I will criticize when need be and will congratulate when deserved. That, IMO, is how you be a REAL fan, e.g. a TRUE Raider. You call it like it is, you don't try to push some hidden agenda. Like most complicated love affairs, the relationship and opinions about Davis are often all partially correct. Some good and some not so good....let's see how this version works itself out.

Damn. Didn't reallize I wrote that much - that was for you SlowLane. Hey, at least I was honest about Al right?

paul0660 · #36 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 03:29 AM

Quote:

I have been a Raider fan since the days of Daryl Lamonica.

I actually predate Al, having been to my first Raider game in 1962. My dad loved the idea of not having to drive to Frisco from Concord to see pro football, so we dumped the Niners and became Raiders fans. When Al showed up in 63 he was like a rock star with a chip on his shoulder, and in just a few years he had changed football forever, and made the Raiders a household name that was respected and feared.

BUT I think the Shark is right on almost every point, and hubris is exactly what the problem is. (Overbearing pride or presumption is the best definition of that word btw). Al had early success, and he has made some gambles that turned out to be brilliant successes, but he has screwed up enough to be fired a dozen times if he weren't self employed. Meanwhile, as Shark pointed out, he as screwed fans and municipalities without guilt, confident that the Raider fan base will remain. We do, and the hubris grows, despite personnel decisions in players and staff that have made the Raiders a laughing stock.

There is no doubt in my mind that when Al retires or passes, the Raiders will improve dramatically. The icon will be gone, but we will be able to honor his memory by recalling the good times, forgetting the failures, and being fans of a team that will have, finally, entered the 21st century.

**HITMAN** · #37 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul0660

I actually predate Al, having been to my first Raider game in 1962. My dad loved the idea of not having to drive to Frisco from Concord to see pro football, so we dumped the Niners and became Raiders fans. When Al showed up in 63 he was like a rock star with a chip on his shoulder, and in just a few years he had changed football forever, and made the Raiders a household name that was respected and feared.

BUT I think the Shark is right on almost every point, and hubris is exactly what the problem is. (Overbearing pride or presumption is the best definition of that word btw). Al had early success, and he has made some gambles that turned out to be brilliant successes, but he has screwed up enough to be fired a dozen times if he weren't self employed. Meanwhile, as Shark pointed out, he as screwed fans and municipalities without guilt, confident that the Raider fan base will remain. We do, and the hubris grows, despite personnel decisions in players and staff that have made the Raiders a laughing stock.

There is no doubt in my mind that when Al retires or passes, the Raiders will improve dramatically. The icon will be gone, but we will be able to honor his memory by recalling the good times, forgetting the failures, and being fans of a team that will have, finally, entered the 21st century.

Excellent post... kudos!

**TheShark** · #38 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 03:38 AM

I admit I have a love-hate relationship with the guy, but one image sticks in my mind: a shot of his box last year where he and 10 other mummies from "Tales From The Crypt" were getting infusion therapies while they watched the game with toothpicks holding their eyes open. There wasn't anyone in that box other than Otto who looked less than 100 (ok, ok, I exaggerate a bit -- but you get the drift). I am absolutely hoping for the best, and for Al's legacy I hope the team turns into a winner before he passes on -- but in my view one of the greatest attributes people in any sport or business can have is the ability to realize that it's time to retire. I think that time is here for Al, and I hope he can do it -- I just don't believe he will.

R8der optimist · #39 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 03:42 AM

WOW, some really good articulate posts here, it really is something when I see well thoughtout insightful objective writing here.

I'll keep it short and sweet, Al will never relinquish his grip on this team, So hoping for him to do so is pointless.
As a wise man once said

"Hope in one hand, **** in the other and see which one fills up faster"

**cheapshotartist** · #40 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 03:56 AM

As long as Al Davis is still kicking he will be calling the shots! He will never change, ever! Until he croaks Al Davis will be running the Oakland Raiders and we will just have to take it with a grain of salt.

paul0660 · #41 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Al will never relinquish his grip on this team, So hoping for him to do so is pointless.

I agree. I really want the season to start, so we can bitch about other stuff.

**HITMAN** · #42 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul0660

I agree. I really want the season to start, so we can bitch about other stuff.

LOL, oh I think there will certainly be enough to bitch about! more than enough!