Let's Be Honest About Al . . . .

[Sac*City*Raider]

Originally Posted by g.g.

TheShark....

The thing is tho, you're looking at it like ALL of Al's best came at the beginning and it's been nothing but a slide and mistakes since.

There have been rocky roads inbetween the halcyon days, and there've been SOME very successful campaigns after our last SB win to the current day. A bit more problems than before, but not an entire cataclysm.

Al is smart, and therefore he knows and acknowledges his flaws/mistakes. No one would know more than him his regrets and failings.

Also consider that due to recent slides, Al has had it tougher hiring players and coaches and staff. So he's had to use band-aid measures (which he is well aware of) over the last four years.

However, the Kiffin signing etc, shows that if you give Al a level playing field, he'll rise to the occasion, and out-perform many other franchises. Level playing field means ability to sign and convince players and coaches to come play. Kiffin, Cable, Knapp, etc, the draft we had, and the apparent professionalism shown, therefore creates a little buzz for players all around the NFL to WANT TO come play. Culpepper taking less dollars. Darius coming on board. Newberry. Williams (and wanting to actually contribute this time in a happier environment). Etc.

1-3 years we'll have another SB in our trophy case.

We have had the most interesting and exciting offseason. I don't know one person, inside the nation or out, that isn't at all intrigued by what we will put out on the field in september.

[_gg_]

Originally Posted by Sac*City*Raider

We have had the most interesting and exciting offseason. I don't know one person, inside the nation or out, that isn't at all intrigued by what we will put out on the field in september.

It's been one hell of a ride so far, and I don't imagine the thrills and spills to end there. White-knuckled edge of the seat stuff in store the rest of the off-season, let alone the regular season.

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

[HITMAN]

Oi, Vai! I'm staying out of this discussion!

[ismail86]

Originally Posted by the_new_Jerry

why all the debate about AL lately when I personally feel as a fan that this is the best 'offseason' we have had in sometime...

Yeah I said the same thing about us having a great offseason and I got **** on...it's just how people are dude!

[TheShark]

My main point was that it's time for Al to move on. I hope the team has one last "hurrah" for him, but I think that right now he's just the nasty old codger running amok.

[HITMAN]

Originally Posted by TheShark

My main point was that it's time for Al to move on. I hope the team has one last "hurrah" for him, but I think that right now he's just the nasty old codger running amok.

Davis will always have his hand in what goes on with the Raiders until he is planted so while I might agree to a point, he's here for the long haul!

[crizpynutz]

Originally Posted by HITMAN

Oi, Vai! I'm staying out of this discussion!

I'll say this, the truth is most certainly somewhere in the middle on Al Davis. Recent history included.

I had a post similar to the one I'm about to post before, but what the hell, (an as impartial as possible view).

1 - Coaching. Al has been successful and failed in hiring good coaches recently. For the Art Shells and Joe Bugels there is a Jon Gruden, Mike Shanahan and hopefully Lane Kiffin. For a Tom Walsh you have a Rob Ryan. The Gruden saga ended poorly and hurt Al's street cred with the younger coaching prospects, IMO. That happens when two massive egos meet and disagree - someone ends up on the outside and when one is the owner, it's pretty much a given who. If Al handles Kiffin better, that problem may be fixed. Time will tell on that one. In short, yeah, he's made some bad calls, but he's made some good ones too.

2 - Drafting. Okay, yeah, there have been some poor draft picks recently. Janikowski filled a big need, but really, a kicker in the first round? Napoleon Harris? Phillip Buchanon? Tyler Brayton? At the same time Nnamdi Asomugha, Fabian Washington, Kirk Morrison, Thomas Howard, Ron Curry, etc. have been IMO, great draft picks. Gallery is teetering on the edge of a bust, I'm hoping he pans out. We'll see about Russell, Miller, Huff et al later.

3 - Free Agents. Okay, Aaron Brooks looks like Martin Lawrence and played like him too, and Jordan has been a bust. Derrick Burgess panned out pretty well and so has Warren Sapp and hopefully Darius, Culpepper, Newberry, etc. work out. We'll certainly see. Davis has always valued players, has always compensated players fairly and expects the same in return. Marcus was also to blame for that relationship going south, it wasn't all Davis' fault. We'll see what happens with JaMarcus, but the irony in the name hasn't escaped me.

4 - Court Cases and the move. I don't like HOW Al handles these issues, but I do agree with where he is coming from. I look at the stadiums that the Patriots, Seahawks, Ravens, and now the Cardinals - the ****ing Cardinals!? are going to play in and I think about where the Raiders have played sience the 80's and neither L.A. nor Oakland has provided a state of the art facility. Al wants the best, Period. That counts for players and facilities - anything associated to the Raiders. Sometimes, a lot of times, he goes about getting it in a way that is abrasive and just plain shrewd. Can't say he's wrong, but he could learn a bit from the phrase, 'you catch more bees with honey'. Neither move was handled well in pissing off the fans, the cities and the NFL, but was Al really 'wrong' in his desire to leave either time? They belong in Oakland, always have, but they also need a stadium and deal that competes with the rest of the league. That's why the Rams left L.A. too, it's not like Al is alone in his beliefs there.

5 - Winning vs. Losing. The last four years have been almost like watching an alzheimer's patient deteriorate. You knew it was happening right before your eyes. In stubborn defiance you try to latch onto that one good moment of clarity and cling to the hope that things will get better. However, from the late 90's to early 2000's we experienced what it was like to be at the top of the league. Went to a Super Bowl and lost. It sucked and it hurt, but let's not diminish the greatness of those teams. Rich Gannon, Rod Woodson, Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Lincoln Kennedy and a bunch of young guys to compliment those crafty vets. The mid-90's pretty much was mediocre to bad with the late 80's to early 90's a bit better. Al must deal with the criticism for the failures, but he also needs to get credit for the successes.

6 - Al has to go? I'm not so sure. I do believe that people can't expect him to change how he works and runs the Raiders. It's either Al's team or it's not. He meddles but IMO, not as much as some believe. Will he ever just be an owner and not meddle? Probably not. Does that mean he 'has to go'? Not necessarily. If Al can find a coach who can deal with him AND get the players to believe and buy in, then of course it can work. Will it happen again - dude, I don't have a crystal ball so I don't know.

I can't change who the owner is, so while Al is around, I'll try to remember the good AND the bad, the successes AND the failures and take it for what it's worth. Al made the Raiders who they are and one can only hope he can regain the greatness that many fell in love with years ago. I will criticize when need be and will congratulate when deserved. That, IMO, is how you be a REAL fan, e.g. a TRUE Raider. You call it like it is, you don't try to push some hidden agenda. Like most complicated love affairs, the relationship and opinions about Davis are often all partially correct. Some good and some not so good....let's see how this version works itself out.

[HITMAN]

Originally Posted by crizpynutz

I'll say this, the truth is most certainly somewhere in the middle on Al Davis. Recent history included.

I had a post similar to the one I'm about to post before, but what the hell, (an as impartial as possible view).

1 - Coaching. Al has been successful and failed in hiring good coaches recently. For the Art Shells and Joe Bugels there is a Jon Gruden, Mike Shanahan and hopefully Lane Kiffin. For a Tom Walsh you have a Rob Ryan. The Gruden saga ended poorly and hurt Al's street cred with the younger coaching prospects, IMO. That happens when two massive egos meet and disagree - someone ends up on the outside and when one is the owner, it's pretty much a given who. If Al handles Kiffin better, that problem may be fixed. Time will tell on that one. In short, yeah, he's made some bad calls, but he's made some good ones too.

2 - Drafting. Okay, yeah, there have been some poor draft picks recently. Janikowski filled a big need, but really, a kicker in the first round? Napoleon Harris? Phillip Buchanon? Tyler Brayton? At the same time Nnamdi Asomugha, Fabian Washington, Kirk Morrison, Thomas Howard, Ron Curry, etc. have been IMO, great draft picks. Gallery is teetering on the edge of a bust, I'm hoping he pans out. We'll see about Russell, Miller, Huff et al later.

3 - Free Agents. Okay, Aaron Brooks looks like Martin Lawrence and played like him too, and Jordan has been a bust. Derrick Burgess panned out pretty well and so has Warren Sapp and hopefully Darius, Culpepper, Newberry, etc. work out. We'll certainly see. Davis has always valued players, has always compensated players fairly and expects the same in return. Marcus was also to blame for that relationship going south, it wasn't all Davis' fault. We'll see what happens with JaMarcus, but the irony in the name hasn't escaped me.

4 - Court Cases and the move. I don't like HOW Al handles these issues, but I do agree with where he is coming from. I look at the stadiums that the Patriots, Seahawks, Ravens, and now the Cardinals - the ****ing Cardinals!? are going to play in and I think about where the Raiders have played sience the 80's and neither L.A. nor Oakland has provided a state of the art facility. Al wants the best, Period and sometimes, a lot of times, who goes about getting it in a way that is abrasive and just plain shrewd. Can't say he's wrong, but he could learn a bit from the phrase, 'you catch more bees with honey'. Neither move was handled well in pissing off the fans, the cities and the NFL, but was Al really 'wrong' in his desire to leave either time? They belong in Oakland, always have, but they also need a stadium and deal that competes with the rest of the league. That's why the Rams left L.A. too, it's not like Al is alone in his beliefs there.

5 - Winning vs. Losing. The last four years have been almost like watching an alzheimer's patient deteriorate. You knew it was happening right before your eyes. In stubborn defiance you try to latch onto that one good moment of clarity and cling to the hope that things will get better. However, from the late 90's to early 2000's we experienced what it was like to be at the top of the league. Went to a Super Bowl and lost. It sucked and it hurt, but let's not diminish the greatness of those teams. Rich Gannon, Rod Woodson, Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Lincoln Kennedy and a bunch of young guys to compliment those crafty vets. The mid-90's pretty much was mediocre to bad with the late 80's to early 90's a bit better. Al must deal with the criticism for the failures, but he also needs to get credit for the successes.

6 - Al has to go? I'm not so sure. I do believe that people can't expect him to change how he works and runs the Raiders. It's either Al's team or it's not. He meddles but IMO, not as much as some believe. Will he ever just be an owner and not meddle? Probably not. Does that mean he 'has to go'? Not necessarily. If Al can find a coach who can deal with him AND get the players to believe and buy in, then of course it can work. Will it happen again - dude, I don't have a crystal ball so I don't know.

I can't change who the owner is, so while Al is around, I'll try to remember the good AND the bad, the successes AND the failures and take it for what it's worth. Al made the Raiders who they are and one can only hope he can regain the greatness that many fell in love with years ago. I will criticize when need be and will congratulate when deserved. That, IMO, is how you be a REAL fan, e.g. a TRUE Raider. You call it like it is, you don't try to push some hidden agenda. Like most complicated love affairs, the relationship and opinions about Davis are often all partially correct. Some good and some not so good....let's see how this version works itself out.

Well said, crisper! well said!

[SlowLane]

whoa ya'll are typing your asses off here ... if there are crib notes available I'll take that otherwise **** this I aint reading this! LOL


Oh yeah ...

AL ****ING RULES.

[JFF]

I think all things considered, Al has earned the right to play out the string.

But nobody lives forever, and the only constant in the universe is change.

Those of you who want Al out will eventually get what you want. No doubt.

The question is: Will the cure be worse than the disease? Who knows? Maybe the next owner will make ya miss ol Al?

Careful whatcha wish for.

[HITMAN]

Originally Posted by JFF

I think all things considered, Al has earned the right to play out the string.

But nobody lives forever, and the only constant in the universe is change.

Those of you who want Al out will eventually get what you want. No doubt.

The question is: Will the cure be worse than the disease? Who knows? Maybe the next owner will make ya miss ol Al?

Careful whatcha wish for.

The next owners are Carol and Mark Davis, with John Madden and possibly Ron Wolf being on board in some capacity so the Raiders won't drift without a rudder...

[SlowLane]

/\ amen