Gruden is spineless

[Towner13]

Buccaneers | Walker Needs to Improve - from www.KFFL.com
Mon, 5 May 2003 14:32:50 -0700

Buccaneers.com reports Tampa Bay Buccaneers head coach Jon Gruden said WR Marquise Walker needs to put back-to-back practices together and become more consistent. He noted that Walker can’t be up one day and down the next

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Marquis Walker was a great WR at Michigan... He wasn't a speed burner, but he had great routes, great hands, great jumping ability and out fought everybody to the ball consistently...
But Gruden is too spineless to ever give a Rookie a chance. It's the reason Porter doesn't have more experience than his breakout season last year under his belt... It's the Reason Eric Barton had to wait to get his chance to prove himself... It's the reason Rod Coleman break the 10 sack mark last season (his first out from under Gruden ( lil Hitler)...

Gruden might have been a great motivator and Rah, Rah, Rah type of coach... But he was an incosistent play caller... And his conservative ways were unbareable to watch.

[Mars]

Agreed!!!! Could not have said it better myself!!!!!!

[sevilla]

Whilst I agree with what you say, you can't argue with what he's achieved at TB, however much that pisses us off.

[Towner13]

Originally posted by sevilla
Whilst I agree with what you say, you can't argue with what he's achieved at TB, however much that pisses us off.

I can't argue???
Well I don't know... Let me give it a shot.
Monte Kiffin is one of the best Defensive Coordinators this sport has ever seen... He could coach a group of Losers into a formiddable defense... But it just so happens that he doesn't have a team of losers...
He has the Hands down best LB in the league today in Brooks (right there w/ Lewis and Urlacher)...
He has one of the most productive D- Tackles in Sapp.
He has the most impressive pass rush specialist in the NFL...(Rice was one of the few to shut down Vick)
And lastly the Best Safety in the NFL in Lynch...

Furthermore, it doesn't hurt to have Pro Bowl Caliber Help surrounding those guys... E.G. Shelton Quarles and Anthony McFarland...

Basically.... That team could have had Elmo playing QB, Bert and Ernie in the backfield, Kermit the Frog as WR and Oscar the Grouch appointed to Head coach and they still would have gone to the super bowl.
All Gruden Accomplished is that he knew the exact offense to tell Kiffin to prepare for and knew the nuances to show the guys to expect from Gannon.
CONGRATULATIONS! YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED A PART IN THE SUPER BOWL WIN...

I'll say it again... Kiffin got that team where it was at the end of the season and Gruden fortunately and conveniently got to use his in depth knowledge of his former team to steer all compliments his way! So I would say a pretty damn good argument could be made about "Gruden's Accomplishments."

[crizpynutz]

I think what Jon Gruden brings is enthusiasm and excitement to playing football. Rookies and young, unproven players already have that feeling/desire, whereas sometimes veterans can get in a rut and need some extra motivation. What Gruden did in Tampa Bay was take a team that stayed relatively the same from the year before under Dungy and he injected that excitement which motivated them to reach another level.

His staunch attention to detail and insane need to everything to be perfect affects the younger players better. They haven't yet gained the consistency to 'do it right' as often as a veteran who has had the time and experience. Look at Oakland, Gruden did wonders for guys like Gannon, Rice, Brown, etc. who had become sort-of stagnant or in a rut so-to-speak. He motivated them and brought an excitement to their game that had been missing.

His impatience with the little things affects rookies more because veterans have worked on them for so long that they don't usually have that inconsistency about them. Gruden is like an adult education teacher more-so than an elementary teacher if you know what I mean.

[sevilla]

But the only thing that really changed from a 9-7 team to SB winners was Gruden/Dungy. I agree about the D, but the O ws pretty effective despite a very average group of players.

[crizpynutz]

Originally posted by sevilla
But the only thing that really changed from a 9-7 team to SB winners was Gruden/Dungy. I agree about the D, but the O ws pretty effective despite a very average group of players.

Well, I sort of agree about the offense -- except that they do have some very good players that I think people underrate. Keenan McCardell is a very reliable #2 WR that can rack up 80 catches and 1,000 yards if used. Keyshawn Johnson is a big, talented posession WR also (even if he fancies himself more than that). Joe Jurevicious, is a big, tall and fast WR that can create mismatches with nickel backs and LB's. Brad Johnson, as much as I can't stand the stiff, has always been an accurate passer and Gruden's offense doesn't ask for very much physically froma QB. I'm not very impressed with Pittman or the offensive line, but they did enough to compliment the defense. The personel was Dungy's and the scheme on defense Kniffin's, but the motivation to bring it to the next level came from Gruden.

[Towner13]

Originally posted by sevilla
But the only thing that really changed from a 9-7 team to SB winners was Gruden/Dungy. I agree about the D, but the O ws pretty effective despite a very average group of players.

You can't really say that nothing changed...
Simeon Rice, not the same player, Quarles... Not the same player, Brooks... Not the same player etc...

Let me put it to you this way...
Our Middle LineBacker this season will be 10 times better than our Middle LineBacker last season... Just so happens that it will be the same guy though... Nappy Harris will be far better this year than he was last year... And probably better the year after that... Barton... Will not be the same player... He'll be better. Jerry Porter will not be the same player... He'll be better!

[crizpynutz]

James Jett will not be the same player.....

Thank you God for small favors!!!!

[daraydaz]

I think the key to the Bucs success was Mckay was able to basically keep the core of the defense together, i.e. Sapp, Lynch, Brooks, Barber. They then complimented the core with players like Rice, McFarland, Quarles etc. This is a sound veteran unit that not only has played together for some time now but has played under the same system under Monte Kiffen since the Dungy days.
Hopefully we can blueprint some of the success they have had and build on some of the positives we had last year.

[AceRimRat]

For all of Gruden's good points, and he has 'em, his handling of young WRs was never, ever, ever one of them.

See: Jerry Porter, Dameane Douglas, Ken-Yon Rambo. Now you could add Walker to that list in Tampa.

[GoDeep]

I don't know how anybody can give KUDOS to Gru for anything that happened while he was in Oakland. The guy was a carnival act here. And became King Of The World the minute Al Davis traded him to TB. TB was a team inches away from the SB. No Oakland Raider player benefitted from him being here, no not even Rich. He has left his mark on the players & Org forever. And the now famous converative play calling that costs us soooo much was due to the fact that he NEVER HAD CONFIDENCE & ANY TYPE OF FAITH IN THE TEAM HE COACHED. And i have the same non-confidence in the coaches he left behind.

[RaiderInNY]

That team could have had Elmo playing QB, Bert and Ernie in the backfield, Kermit the Frog as WR and Oscar the Grouch appointed to Head coach and they still would have gone to the super bowl.

Can we sign Miss Piggy, i hear she plays some o-line and D-line! 2 way star in the making!

[SoCalRaider]

Original take by Towner13

But Gruden is too spineless to ever give a Rookie a chance. It's the reason Porter doesn't have more experience than his breakout season last year under his belt... It's the Reason Eric Barton had to wait to get his chance to prove himself... It's the reason Rod Coleman break the 10 sack mark last season (his first out from under Gruden ( lil Hitler)...

I don't buy this specific criticism of Gruden. His handling of Porter may have had more to do with his feud with AD drafting drafting a WR that Gruden was not high on. Also keep in mind that a coach by the name of Phil Jackson also doesn't give rookies much PT, has classic feuds with the front office, and has only won 9 championships. Gruden is 8 behind, but he's still got a few more in him.

The take on Barton and Coleman is a reach. Gruden called the shots on offense, not defense. Coleman's and Barton's playing time last year had nothing to do with Gruden.

[Mr.Murder]

Chucky left it to our D to lose it, the Ravens year Cally was playcalling and we were conservative wasnt he? Wheat wasnt 100% going in and Gannon was timid, was as far as he'd ever gone and it showed.

Cally was more confident, but the times he decided we go for it was always what? Conservative Jumbo package runs...very similar to our style in the Gru days for the first 2 polayoff seasons, same calls on third downs.


I know those coaches respect each other too much to compare styles, each has taken what the other did well and incorporated it into their system. They are good friends as well. Some of those conservative Chucky calls were perhaps Cally's (run with lead), some of Gruden's genius formations and plays (Jumbo sets with 6 or 7 OL, spread sets that slot wr/te was sweep downblock at point) came from Cally's days as a Wisconsin ass't coach in the Dayne years.


Finally, Gannon made some of the calls as well, this year we let him do so freely, but many key places Chucky gave a look like he didnt call the play that was selected.

Same superbowl story, was far as Gannon had ever gone, and it showed. long learn curve for the ol' man.

The young wr comment may hold true, since Gruden prefers wr run option routes that change with covers and actually require no audible to change, Gannon used audible fakes for run checkdowns more so than passes unless the teams blitzed, otherwise his vet wr knew where to go. Porter was changing positions, his first full year as wr starter was with us, so it took a while, and Gruden stayed on his case , but him watching our Hall greats may have been enough.

Had Porter been rushed in and run wrong routes in key times Gannon would have blown up and refused to throw at him, look at how he ignored Ro WIlliams for an easy td vs. CHiefs since he had pass go through him in St.Louis the same route.

Other teams quit covering certain guy because Rich wouldnt throw to them, if chucky knew such why put him in?

Too much being put onto Gru there, this system is complex and Jerry needed time to learn it. More BLAME should probably go where it belongs...RICH.... RICH didnt WANT to change audibles, Rich called plays as he saw fit, and Rich threw into covers when it counted.


Gannon found new level to his game, but someone who knew that game was his match, he fell into his habits of forcing the out routes and not reading his covers, or expecting blitz and not checking back 'up' when it wasnt there.

Hard to do such with Rice on you though. Teams that win can do one thing on consistent basis....rush passer WITHOUT having to blitz.We tried to upgrade that... added lots of d end speedrush help.Am looking forward to the hustle and speed we added making plays for Oakland.


Al Davis gave Gru his first head coach job, everyone else wanted Parcells. Gruden took us as far as he thought Gannon would get us, and was a homeboy... he is home now and happy, am glad for him.

We returned to our old Raiders level, always in contention, everyone else has their year, flukes come and go, Raiders will be in the race always, that is our plan and it will remain so.
JUST WIN BABY!!!